Jocko Podcast 211 with Dave Berke: TACTICS. Leadership Strategy and Tactics Pt.2

Jocko Podcast 211 with Dave Berke: TACTICS. Leadership Strategy and Tactics Pt.2

this is Jocko podcast number 211 with
echo Charles and me Jocko willing good evening echo good evening and also
joining us again is Dave Burke good evening Dave good evening and we are
going to roll right back into the book leadership strategy and tactics because
we only made it halfway through on the first attempt so the first part that we
did make it through was called strategy does the strategy part and now we are
getting into the tactics part section one part two section one and it starts
off with this section right here becoming a leader how to succeed is a
new leader once you have been selected as a leader it is time to lead what is
the best way to do this like many things starting off on the right foot is simple
but not easy here are some fundamental rules to keep in mind as you take
command 1 be humble it is an honor to be in a leadership position your team is
counting on you to make the right decisions – don’t act like you know
everything you don’t the team knows that ask smart questions 3 listen ask for
advice and heat it for treat people with respect regardless of rank everyone is a
human being and plays an important role in the team treat them that way take
care of your people and they will take care of you 5 take ownership of failures
and mistakes 6 pass credit for success up and down the chain of command 7 work
hard as the leader you should be working harder than anyone else on the team no
job is beneath you 8 have integrity do what you say say what you do don’t lie
up or down the chain of command 9 be balanced extreme actions and opinions
are usually not good 10 be decisive when it is time to make a decision make 111
build relationships that is your main goal as a
leader a team is a group of people who have relationships and trust one another
otherwise it is just a disconnected incoherent cluster of people 12 lastly
get the job done that is the purpose of a leader to lead a team in accomplishing
a mission if you don’t accomplish the mission you
fail as a leader performance counts these are straightforward rules they
make sense on paper but they can be hard to remember and implement in a
leadership environment review them often look at them in the morning before
meetings and when you are about to make things happen
review them before you go to sleep at night soon they will become second
nature but if you find yourself struggling pause reread these rules and
ensure that you are following them so there you go straightforward because how
many times has this question come to me just took over a team just starting just
got promoted it comes over and over and over and over again so these are very
simple very straightforward rules to to abide by review them often no joke
cuz guarantee you of that list at any given time you’re not doing something on
that list you need to remind yourself what did you need to do to be successful
as a leader and you know what’s interesting even as you say that Dave
it’s like yeah this is like oh I’m talking to the new guys right I’m
talking to someone that hasn’t been in a leadership position I’m talking to
someone that’s just about to take over and when it’s when you’re saying that
I’m thinking yeah yeah he’s right not just about the new guy he’s right about
me 100% right about me so yeah this is becoming a leader but you might want to
just take a look at these from time to time and see where you’re at roll us
skip forward a little bit here when you are not chosen when you’re not chosen to
be a leader there are times when you will not be selected as a leader perhaps
they promote someone else from within your team perhaps they bring someone
from outside your team or outside the organization to lead when that
happens you might feel frustrated or angry because you are not chosen keep
those feelings to yourself instead of allowing yourself to become angry and
frustrated take the opportunity to do a good honest assessment of yourself to
see why you are not chosen after you have done that and after you have given
yourself time to calm down you can even ask your supervisors why you are not
selected for promotion of course this must be done with tact don’t say hey
boss why wasn’t I selected for a promotion
I’m just as good if not better than the person you gave the role to how’s that
gonna go over poorly yeah poorly and yet people do that all day instead say hey
boss I wanted to get some feedback from you as you know there was a recent
promotion here and I eventually want to move up in a more senior leadership
position – I want to know if there’s anything I can focus on and do better so
I’m more qualified and more prepared to lead when the next opportunity comes can
you help me out boss I mean think about what that does somebody says that to me
man I’m like okay this person isn’t Drac yeah this person is tracking same thing
would you just two belts by the way – mmm don’t act up don’t you promote it
didn’t get the promotion good let’s get mad yeah behavior and would you and
would you recommend that someone didn’t get promoted to whatever belt at a
promotion day hmm would you recommend they ask the the instructor what can I
do to get them whatever belt no yeah I say no I say just you kind of got to
know just get better at what you you know yeah there’s a little deviation
from the from the correlation of jujitsu and life that’s a little deviation
because really with jujitsu we’re 100% not asking about belts 100% yeah
actually you know in a way it’s not even really a deviation because getting a
promotion and being in a very specific position that’s like there’s a reason
for the you know and it’s like there’s there
many legitimate reasons for that I mean especially with like the Rays and like
all the stuff but the belt that’s just superficial Oh check this out what if
instead of saying hey echo I you didn’t promote me to purple belt
what can I work on so I can get promoted a purple belt that’s one thing what if
two days after the promotion after I let Mike after I calm down I was like hey
echo I’m looking to improve is there any holes you see my game that
I can work on yeah and then you know what you have to do thing it’s the same
thing but so actually the correlation is back on track yeah yeah Jitsu in life
yeah because the same thing when you when you ask even even the way I worded
that right there I want to be more prepared to lead it’s not even saying I
want to get Pro to saying I want to be more prepared to lead yeah we’re keeping
this thing soft keeping it keeping it indirect and
tactical flanking yes sir yeah there’s a piece there I think the
correlation is completely intact there’s also a little piece here to that look
you if you’re in this position you find out you didn’t get what you’re expecting
you shouldn’t be too surprised and if you are were you actually need to start
is with yourself a little bit before you go run into the boss or even it even in
a positive light take a step back and say hey look this caught me off guard
I didn’t expect this I thought I was gonna get that from oh okay didn’t work
out take a step back and you need to look at why you were caught off guard to
figure that piece out first that I’m not saying don’t go to your boss and say I
want to get better you absolutely can do that that’s not where you need to start
and I think the correlation is totally valid it is and and that even in the
book I started with take the opportunity to do a good honest assessment of
yourself to see why you’re not chosen and then after you have done that that’s
when you go if you can then deem it appropriate and then what’s interesting
and this is also makes sense on both fronts and when you receive that
feedback actually listen to it after all you just asked for it as human beings we
have a strong tendency to get defensive don’t
instead of getting defensive listen truly listen and try to understand the
perspective being offered then take ownership of those shortfalls
and try to make improvements in the areas of critique you have received
there’s a whole whole thing that’s been unwinding in my brain and you and I were
talking about an echo the other day not on the podcast but just in life there’s
this whole thing where the ability to detach is what allows you to see your
ego the ability to detach is that what allows you to say oh yeah I’m not as
good as I think I am or as what it looks like from my perspective so that there’s
what made me think of this is a way just said if you’re caught off guard if
you’re caught off guard and you don’t get promoted clearly you aren’t detached
enough to see where you actually rank out with everyone else so this idea of
of ego of the ability to detach and of cognitive ability that dick Thompson
talked about those things are all this this thing that’s all wrapped up in one
it wasn’t little too wrapped up in one but they’re all related because if you
if you talk to someone that has a big ego their ability to detach is tiny yeah
because if they were able to detach they’d be able to take a step back and
see how out of line their ego was and they’d see how other
people are perceiving them that’s the crazy thing about someone the big ego
they don’t even see how other people perceive them or like you said in our
conversation the other day when they get told they have a big yield they actually
see it as a positive thing like you’re damn right that’s cuz I’m over here
winning yeah and you say hmm interesting cuz no one likes you and that means yeah
you can for blunt-force trama some stuff right now but where it’s gonna end up is
not good so this whole thing of being able to detach if someone has a big ego
it indicates that they’re not able to detach because if they could
see it yeah yeah it’s almost like they dare like okay I’m awesome I’m the man
I’m awesome or whatever and you’re like hey you have a big ego right and to them
they’re like yeah like I’m awesome of course I have a big ego like I’m
recognizing my awesomeness like that’s kind of the only way to see it like it’s
obvious that everyone else sees it and I’m just one of the many infinite people
that recognizes it to you well yeah I am one of those people yes it’s like real
obvious and you should probably raise the flag that says I don’t know how to
detach yeah well you’re talking about the cognitive component of that to that
ego also does another small little problem was prevention to do the thing
that you just said was actually listen to the feedback yeah and get better
which you you can’t do if you have an ego so the ego when we say it infects
everything it infects everything and you say this in all the books that you talk
about on the podcast I know you already said it I’ll be repetitive you have to
read every word of this book everything Jacko’s skipping you know
just out of necessity for time everything needs to be read even in the
sequence to from strategy down to tactics and even this what seems to be
small component so that actually feed into this larger thing you have to read
all of this when you get this every word yeah there’s there’s a lot in the words
yes there’s a lot in the words that I’m definitely not covering right now to
give people kind of an overall feeling of what is in the book and there’s an
audiobook as well which I read so there’s that as well if you if you’re
not really into reading okay I had to I had to cover this too which is
overcoming a grudge going to the book there will be times in your career when
there will be when you will be the one promoted into a leadership position in
place to above your former peers this can be challenging but when handled
correctly the challenge can be mitigated most of your former peers will accept
the situation get on board but sometimes there are people who get bitter and
resentful that they weren’t promoted and they show that bitterness there are some
ways to mitigate a bad attitude from your former peers at first don’t try and
force your rank down their throats tell them you appreciate their
experience you looking to them to help lead let them
come up with plans and ideas ask for their input if they come up with a solid
plan let them run with it when the opportunity arises put them in charge of
some tasks projects and missions this shows them that you trust them at you do
truly appreciate their experience and knowledge and if they can put their egos
in check the situation can be overcome but also be advised that some people
will be hypersensitive and see you putting them in charge of something as
condescending or as proof that you don’t know what you’re doing and that they
should have been promoted not you isn’t that an interesting little dynamic like
one end of the spectrum to the other like if I say hey echo you know would
you mind running this there’s one person that goes oh yeah now he has put me in
charge of these little projects cuz he’s in promoting he thinks he’s the man so
that’s one at negative attitude the other negative attitude is more like hey
echo do you think you can run this project you like yeah I can run it cuz
you don’t know what you’re doing doing them yeah so and and by the way and we
get listened to when when they’re pouting and bad
attitude become apparent recognized that the likely reason they were not promoted
is because they likely lack the humility and maturity maturity to be a leader if
that’s the case continue to be cordial treat them with respect and try and
build a relationship but don’t expect racket and rapid improvement from them
this will be a long process you’re going to have to be patient and make sure you
don’t let them distract you from the mission or the rest of team so there’s
another classic example the person that doesn’t get promoted the reason they
don’t get promoted because they lack self-awareness that don’t know how to
detach they’ve got a giant ego and all that stuff just feeds into this problem
and you can barely even discuss it with them I think this is this next section
I’m skipping to might be my favorite subtitle in the book it’s called don’t
go overboard Rambo and here we go and this this you know much of the
specific subjects to cover in this book are
directly from questions from the podcast this is one of those questions that I
got asked early on and I was like oh yeah I forgot about that guy we all know
this we all know this John J Rambo guy vs. guy right not that John not the John
McCole you ramble it back in the day that’s all that that stories in this
book too we might get there uh don’t go overboard Rambo here we go you want to
be a leader that’s great but don’t be offensive about it what does that mean
it means don’t run around saying I’m the leader I’m in charge listen to me I
don’t make all the decisions this attitude will offend many people it’s
the equivalent of look at me I’m important and it doesn’t go over well
Rambo might be a cool movie character but charging out alone with read without
regard for others doesn’t work in a team environment saying I’m the leader follow
me can offend people’s egos in their minds perhaps they’re thinking you don’t
deserve to be in charge there is a good chance they are even thinking that they
are the one who should be in charge so you barking at them that you are the
leader is not a good idea and when you do make some kind of a mistake which you
will and they’ll be ready to pounce on it leadership in most cases should be
subtle I remember seeing these young junior
officers in the SEAL Teams that like either they would they went through ROTC
or they you know the Naval Academy or whatever whatever they came from
wherever they got their Commission but somewhere along I like Laila they like
took leadership classes right and they were into it they were into it and so
they kind of walked around like they were you know into it and man that was
offensive to people and it’s weird because as a instructor right you’re as
an instructor at the Naval Academy or at the basic school or at the company
command course in the Army you’re what you’re telling these guys hey you’re the
leader you’re the leader like leadership is important leadership is the most
important thing on the battlefield we said at all time at echelon from we’re
programming everyone that leadership is most important thing
your leader UNICEF of lead so it’s it’s I guess not to be unexpected that
someone actually decides they’re gonna act that way without realizing that
they’re going overboard they’re getting crazy yeah kind of like they’re
important the most important thing on the battlefield for sure her nicely done
echo Charles exactly leadership is the most important thing on the book
battlefield you aren’t the most important thing excellent work that
might that might have topped your last your last epic contribution well write
the football won the wide receiver in the artifact yes that was a that was the
other one so cool there’s been some times some moments yeah we are all
appreciative of read um alright so we talked about this on the last podcast
we’ll go into a little bit more detail here leadership skills this is section
two when to step up and lead there are times I’ll jump a little bit
into it there are times when a leadership vacuum occurs no one is
taking charge of a situation bad circumstances are unfolding but no one
is doing anything about it no one is leading that is a moment where
someone needs to jump in and take charge you will see that people are waiting for
it they are waiting for leadership and when you step up with a simple plan and
give clear direction they will accept that direction and execute so that’s
what you said earlier Dave for the Alamo on the last podcast you were talking
about that like when there’s a leadership vacuum there’s a void and you
step in and make a call like people will be ready to execute which which is
absolutely true going back to the book but it uh isn’t always that simple if
you are the only one who has recognized the threat of inaction if you are the
only one who recognizes the leadership void then other people on the team might
not be waiting for someone to start leading they might think everything is
okay so if you jump up and start bar King orders they might be taken aback by
it they might be offended or feel you’re stepping on their toes so that’s a very
interesting dynamic and you know what I was writing this part of the book and I
forget what what triggered me I think it was but it was probably a question from
the podcast to really start thinking about all these situations that I’ve
been in where being detached haven’t you know the stepping back and watching
these things unfold and then seeing even detached from myself well I’m watching
when I’m gonna step in and then watching when I was running training watching
platoon commanders you know jump in there and start to take control when the
moment wasn’t they were close the moment wasn’t ready for it and this is a matter
this could be a matter of sex sex it could be a matter of seconds when the
platoon chief and the LPO and the machine gunners all think they know
what’s going on and then all of a sudden you jump in and say hey we need to fall
back the first response you’re gonna get is
hell no and now what we have is confusion and and breakdown if you give
them want you know you give it another two seconds where all of a sudden that
that building people see that that building you’re moving towards is
occupied people go eat and they stop and get down and now you go
fall back everyone was waiting for that command and they execute it continuing
on that’s why you might want to hesitate a moment when you see that leadership
vacuum appear that is a tactic I used as a leader throughout my career of course
if there was an immediate threat that needed to be addressed instantaneously
and no one was doing anything I would step up immediately and make a call I
would fill the leadership book void however if there was a problem unfolding
a little more slowly I wouldn’t rush to take charge I would left the problem
develop a little bit I would look around detach mentally and truly observe the
situation I would confirm that what I was seeing was correct I wouldn’t allow
an opportunity for someone else to step up and fill the leadership vacuum and if
someone else did then I would initially assess their plan and the directions
they were giving if they were giving good guidance I would support them if
they gave bad guidance I would continue to consider what a better plan was so I
could give corrections when the time was you said something earlier that actually
is was true for the entire first part and it’s permeates all throughout this
is that leadership almost always as subtle it’s the subtle thing not this
loud overbearing thing and one of the things we get asked about a lot when
we’re talking about dichotomies is this phrase default aggressive so it’s the
first mindset we talk about being aggressive of solving problems but
people take that with I’m being aggressive so I am doing the right thing
no matter what it is and I’m being aggressive that’s what we have to do and
the idea of waiting you know a couple seconds whatever this the idea of
waiting to be effective the the most common pushback was there was a vacuum
there was a void there was somebody needed to step up and lead and the
hardest feedback to give people is actually that’s not what was happening
that’s what you thought was happening but with a Rover they’re doing is they
were assessing or they were considering you even talked about a little bit of
between those two platoon commanders where you made a call peal right on that
that first platoon and it was the right call
he kind of did almost the same thing well in that situation that the vacuum
actually wasn’t there to be filled and this idea of leadership being subtle
it’s not as satisfying as people want it to to be and they want this thing where
it’s loud and spotlights on you and you jump in and you mean where your ego gets
completely yeah man and you want to look around and and and you’re welcome
the subtlety of that in all the examples you go through it’s it’s everywhere in
leadership is the subtlety of it and that really comes from part of it it
comes from experience but it’s also recognizing what are other people going
through before you make a decision this reminds me of something we talked about
early on this podcast this podcast was you know I was saying listen if you’re
doing it right you’re winning a battle and the other person doesn’t even know
that there was a battle going on right you want it and and then you have to you
have to control your ego enough that you don’t say look I just want you to even
know it because then you just threw it out the window
same thing here if you really doing leadership well the team
barely even knows that you’re leading them they can barely even feel it like
they and it’s like this unseen forces there they kind of know but they almost
feel it’s their own force and they’re making things happen that they think are
their own things and all you’re doing is you you’re you’re being so subtle that
they barely even know that they’re being led and that is optimum now you do have
to be careful because people have to people have to unyu can’t do that so
much that they don’t recognize you as the leader because now there’s gonna be
times when they look to turn to someone and they don’t turn to you right which
can be a problem so we have to be a little bit careful but that is so rare
that you could actually pull that off and the reason it’s rare to pull that
off is because teams and organizations and people trying to get things done
require leadership yeah they require times when the leaders known and so
those times are enough few and far between if it’s seven to like we talked
about on the last pot guys if it’s seven times in every three years
this is there anyone that’s walking around like well you know I doubt
Jacko’s he doesn’t seem like he knows what’s going on anymore like there’s no
one walking around saying that but the leadership is subtle it’s like mmm we
seem to be man we’re doing good what’s going on here this this is working out
nice wow this is cool no one’s going like hey well I’m ready
to just I’m doing all this myself yeah and that’s the way you want it to be you
want to win without them knowing you’re fighting and you want to lead without
them barely even know knowing that you’re leading and the biggest hardest
part of that to do in both those cases is put your ego in check
enough that you can that you can win without gloating and that you can lead
without credit that’s what you want I’m gonna continue on here when someone
else wouldn’t step up quickly it was usually because no one else had noticed
that there was a leadership vacuum they wouldn’t notice because they were not
detached their minds were absorbed in the situation since I practiced being
detached I wasn’t lost in the details of what was going on I was mentally in a
different place looking at the scenario unfold from a virtual distance which
allowed me to see problems more quickly that still doesn’t mean I would jump
right in by letting a little more time pass by letting that leadership void
linger just a little bit longer everyone else would begin to notice it they would
recognize there was a problem since that time past and now everyone else knew
there was a problem when I gave orders on how to solve it people would listen
and they would execute another reason to pause before jumping into a leadership
vacuum as soon as you see it is to make sure that no one else is jumping in
there if two people step in to fill a leadership void at the same time they
usually bump into each other when they get there and then while the problem is
growing they have to take precious time to sort out which person is actually
gonna lead and which one is gonna stand down
and if egos clashed at that moment we’re gonna have a even bigger problem
I would rather avoid that if someone else is going to step in with a plan
it’s fine with me when I see the void I pause look around assess if anyone else
is gonna step up and lead while I do this the problem grows pretty much very
soon everyone notices the problem I see that and then step up and make a call a
call that everyone know needs to be made now what this is a real obvious answer
but it’s not so obvious when you’re in the heat of the moment something’s going
on and I make a call and echo makes a call at the same time what do I do
let me leave immediately defer alright hey cool I got you I mean as long I
assess your plan and a half a second and go good enough all right cool I got you
you’re right go yeah you gotta be like pretty aggressive with
that letting them lead cuz you know like you know like you’re going to the
supermarket right and then you’re walking in and you’re about to hit the
entrance door boom and someone else is coming with you know they’re hitting the
entrance door at the exact same time seams ain’t part of your team are
unknown unknown or whatever no no unknown yeah yeah I guess unknown but
whatever yeah unknown this is where it would happen the most with a stranger
then you’re like oh you’re polite guy right let him go but they’re just as
polite as you so they’re like no no you go no no you go and then you guys both
decide okay let’s not play this game I’ll go but you both decided at the same
time you guys both go now you’re at the state step one again
you seem sane so what I would do okay I’m not saying either one good comment
today but but understand it kind of seems like the same thing different is
this a different level it is it is the same thing where both people are going
on I’m gonna make a call and and that is why yes you’re right that’s why even
when I did this for second role play I was like you’re right you got it
go like I’m gonna make it that clear yeah yeah I feel that way too like if
someone’s like like nope you go like straight up nope you go if they have
like this weird aggressive sort of way I’m be I will be way more compelled to
go so you’re saying or if it’s like a lot of times it’s like with a friend who
you’re just not quite as close with them so there’s kind of just you’re still
trying to be polite I’ll just push them in we might want to we might want to do
a podcast on that like just that right just supermarket entries maybe I got a
one more little section on this there’s also an inverse to the leadership vacuum
and that this is one you see a lot as well which is too many people try and
lead everyone wants to offer their opinion give advice and weigh in on the
decision this can inhibit the decision-making process and the leaders
ability to lead and then I don’t want to talk about dispersion and the way that
breaks out tactically but and how you solve that problem what you do when
you’ve got a bunch of people that are all trying to lead at the same time next section this is one where I was
like yeah do I really need to put this section in here does it really need to
be done and then I went like and worked with a client I’m like yeah
I’m gonna put it in there it’s called don’t take things personally this may
seem obvious but I see it all the time where people takes things personally
don’t take anything personally it’s hard to do this you have to fight your ego to
avoid taking things personally even when people ask for critique points they
often get mad when they actually hear them don’t allow yourself to do that
don’t take criticism personally not about the plan you came up with not
about the idea you had not about the presentation you gave not about the
decision you made even when your biggest rival the last person you want to hear
from has something to say listen even when someone you don’t think is on your
level someone who isn’t even close to having the knowledge position or
authority to give you one iota of feedback wants to speak even then do
yourself a favor and just listen detach and listen to what they have to say and
from an objective mindset see if you can learn anything at all from their
commentary then apply it and say thank you I know that stings and get over
yourself this takes humility my hell make you
better there that last one is huge because what is universal in every
company and every team I’ve ever been a part of even in the military as
experience has a ton of value so if you and I are both kind of equal experienced
a little pretty senior guys throat before squadron third or fourth platoon
and a brand new guys says something I’m gonna think myself you know who’s this
new guy and you’re gonna feed on that and we’re gonna feed each other like
yeah this guy and and I’m gonna get almost all the reinforcements I’m gonna
get from your organization is to not listen to him the organization’s gonna
reinforce that ego because all of us that have experienced because all of our
egos have been all electively offended yes that’s exactly right
who does this guy he is so it isn’t just you thinking man
you know what I gotta I gotta listen to this guy it’s that a-hole nobody else is
gonna think you should and so and if you don’t you’re almost gonna be rewarded
for squashing that new guy and so that check of your ego that part
where it stings it’s gonna sting even more the more experience you get because
of the people around you are gonna expect you to crush that guy because
that’s how most organizations are if you can detach in that situation now you’re
on a path where not only will that community I appreciate it the rest of
the people the organization I know wow it’s I’m pretty important Jacko’s able
to listen to that guy okay maybe I need to reassess a little bit how I view you
know that that situation because nothing almost always that we feed on each other
and push that even more and once again it’s the it’s the subconscious or
conscious you know when I say hey you know that’s a good point you know new
guy hey that’s a good point you know maybe we should try that everyone else
in the room listens and Gus – hey like he’s so confident that he can listen to
a new guy and I’m over here all offended you know hurt you know freaked out cuz
that that person said something like that’s just so money yeah you want to
talk about being being supremely confident you listen to anybody give
them the proper respect that they deserve it’s a good point
hey can you expand on that a little bit I mean and to the other thing that you
said which is no insignificant matter what that new guy thinks of you is like instead of shutting them down he’s you
got you’ve got a you’ve got up you got a supporter yeah you got someone you can
count on yeah next section I got this who knows who knows who knows why this
hasn’t been discussed in the world at a deep and and profound level because it’s
such an important thing to know and understand this little section is called
don’t dig in General George s pass and Patton famously told his troops not to
dig in he wanted them to advance advance advance you can’t advance if you’re dug
in Patton’s idea of not digging in actually translates incredibly well from
a leadership perspective and it is one that I always kept in the back of my
mind when you have an idea thought or opinion don’t dig in and what that means
is don’t over commit to your ideas keep an open mind and leave yourself an out when I was in a leadership position in
the SEAL Teams there were always a lot of different ideas floating around how
to execute a mission what plan to use which tactics were best and like many
organizations no one could ever seem to agree on anything but it was always safe
to assume that when different people had different ideas the idea that people
liked the best was almost always their own maybe it’s ego maybe it’s pride or
maybe it’s just that people can see their own perspective better than anyone
elses this is not unique to the SEAL Teams
people in different organizations everywhere all do the same thing they
tend to think their ideas the best and they get hung up arguing about it and
arguing is generally bad it means wasting time without moving forward and
what’s worse people often argue not for the best idea but for their idea and
what really makes for a horrible situation is when people not only think
of their idea is the best but they dig to protect it they aren’t going to give
any ground they cannot concede a single inch in admitting theirs is not the best
idea of all time the more they come under attack the
deeper they dig in they will not change their minds to translate this back to
tactical terms when people dig in to defend their ideas not only can they not
advance them they also cannot maneuver and change their thoughts they’re dug in
and they can’t move and I used to see this all the time with some seal leaders
inside of us see often they would come up with their ideas or our plan and then
dig in with this and defend it with zero compromise it was awful to see hours of
fruitless arguments which were not ever driving toward the best solution but
driving toward the leaders own solution leaders often painted themselves into a
corner so that they eventually would be left with no choice except to order
their subordinates to follow their plan so and I go into some more details about
this but you know here’s oh I can’t here’s how I kind of reflect my my
tactics around this I always avoided this I would seldom dig in and get over
committed to my idea my plan or my opinion when someone had an opposing
point of view I didn’t look for ways to prove my idea was better instead I look
to see which idea was actually better if my idea wasn’t good I conceded and
accepted theirs if the ideas were relatively equal I would defer to theirs
so they had ownership if my idea was a far superior than the differences were
usually obvious enough to convince the person with the opposing view that they
were wrong and I would never have to admit that I was wrong because I never
claimed that I was right that’s such a little tricky move yeah that that that’s
almost that that tricky move you just talked about that question comes up
we’re talking alasc UAE’s is hey how often do you think I’m wrong
and people like oh you’re wrong all the time you’re like actually this is that
the must yeah at the mother asked everyone idea what spurred the question
yeah it was how often do you all how often do you guys think I’m wrong yeah
exactly but it and so what was well her story media inclination was like like
I’m always right because I have I have so much experience I have a the reason
it’s I’m almost never wrong is that I never make the claim in the beginning to
put myself in the position and the reason why I think that that conclusion
is so important is when as a leader do you think it’s beneficial for you to be
in a place where you cannot maneuver well under what situation would it be
good for end if you can’t maneuver what does that mean for your team you are the
leader there is that and so it’s not just about you and your inability to
maneuver to turn to move to whatever is required is what essentially seals your
fate and for the people and the best way to be able to maneuver is is well you
say never dig in but when people are having those conversations you want
those conversations if you’re the leader you should be the one of the last people
communicating about what you think we should do because more than likely the
minute you talk nobody else is going to talk because you’re in charge people
don’t want to talk over the leader but if you’re listening not not waiting to
talk but actually listening and you actually have the team that you think
you have the right answer will come out long before we have to say anything and
you never had 99 out of 100 totally or just two hundred and ninety-three times
out of seven yes I mean and and mmin ability to maneuver if you think about
it we talked earlier these are this is tactics but you were thinking
strategically all the time all the time if I go down the road of what I think we
should do what could what will this do to my ability to maneuver down the road
and almost always if the harder you dig in the harder will be to move and you
know and I covered in the book I’m not gonna cover right now but I do talk
about when do you dig it when are you not gonna change and there are
situations like that and you’ve got to be cognizant of that so
but the part that most people screw up is they dig in on the dumbest thing yes
the worst ideas or even decent ideas but they don’t want to maneuver and they
just end up in horrible situations because of it
I do I do a section on iterative decision making which is which is really
important for people to understand it makes that idea of it or iterative
decision making it that that is in this book makes decision-making an entirely
new an entirely new process for people yeah to to understand how to iteratively
make decisions is is a tool that people can use and it’s not the right tool all
the time but it’s a tool a large percentage of the time and if you
understand how to do it it is it changes the process and improves the results of
your decision making yeah and the more you grow as a leader the more strategic
your viewpoint and thinking needs to be the more inner of decision-making is
important yes there are times at a very small tactical thing I don’t want to
iterate on that I’m gonna kick in that door and I’m gonna go it absolutely the
more you grow the more strategic you need to think the more inner of it has
to be and so yes I will never put my hand out and say always I don’t I won’t
say that but the more you grow the more experienced the more it shifts towards
almost always in that direction that iterative decision-making is Right
almost all the time not always the more you do it the more that’s the way you
need to do it helped me so much and what this is this what’s interesting about it
right so iterative decision making in a nutshell is like we’re gonna make small
decisions based on what we suspect and some people consider that to be
indecisive right here’s what’s funny my reputation in the SEAL Teams and now is
of being extremely decisive like people just think oh like oh yeah he’s gonna
make the call yeah and what’s funny is I am
and the reason I got that reputation is because when there was a decision to be
made on the battlefield or during training I was gonna make a decision and
it was gonna come and it was gonna be there and everyone was gonna know it
really quick when it needed to happen but it would be the small decision that
was leading in the direction that I thought overarching was correct but man
is it a it’s a it’s a kid it’s almost like a trick you know it’s a tactic
that’s what it is it’s a it but it’s a really nice little tactic about what
we’re gonna do how we’re gonna move forward the seat now that’s that’s
another one this is again there’s a bunch of parts of this book where people
go people are saying I didn’t really expect that right I didn’t expect
chocolate to help me to make small decisions big bold action make a
decision hey I’m telling you make a decision make the smallest decision you
can that’s moving in the direction you think and then you can make changes you
can iterate on that so it’s funny that people don’t understand this yeah
the feedback you’re looking forward to know if you made the right decision is
down the road of the decision and so you actually need to move in that direction
but you don’t need to move that far to start getting feedback and it’s this
that’s the feedback you need and see if you’re right yeah that whole section is
is it’s good to go here’s another little section that people will this will flank
some people it’s called conform to influence here we go to the book as a
new guy I was extremely motivated I wanted to train as hard as possible to
prepare for war but this was 1992 and there was no war happening the first
Gulf War it ended six months earlier and lasted only 72 hours the Vietnam War
were seals and earned their fierce reputation that made me want to be a
seal had ended 20 years earlier this was full-on peacetime Navy but I was young
and figured my war was coming so I wanted to be ready for it so I did
things a little bit differently from most of the other people at SEAL team
one I got to work early I did our team conditioning runs with heavy boots on
instead of running shoes I wore a rucksack with a forty pound sandbag in
it when we ran the obstacle course I did Knight ocean swims alone with my
web gear on I tried to do everything just a little bit harder than what was
normally required I thought I was doing the right thing after all
I was preparing for war unfortunately my attitude was not appreciated by some of
the older guys in my platoon sure the other guys knew knew me it was sure some
of the other new guys who knew me understood my attitude because they went
through bugs with me they knew I was just fired up but for some of the older
guys but some of the older guys thought I was going overboard for them have
after having been in the SEAL Teams for six eight 10 or even a dozen years they
knew that sustained performance as a seal wasn’t a sprint it was a marathon
they knew that additional wear and tear on the knees shoulders ankles and back
had to be monitored and mitigated they knew we were about to start an extensive
and arduous work up of long patrols parachuting fast roping diving in all
kinds of other evolutions that would put intense physical demands on all of us
those demands it would be even harder on guys who had already done multiple
deployments and workups but for us new guys coming straight out of buds we were
healthy and ready to charge and in my mind I was personally trying to take it
to the next level it didn’t take long before I started to hear grumbling from
some of those more experienced guys little comments started to let me know
they weren’t seeing things quite the same way I was here comes Rambo or look
at this tough guy at first it sounded like they were joking but the tone got
stronger and before long I realized that they did not like what I was doing now
it would have been very easy for me to assess the situation and cast the blame
on them I could have said to myself what is wrong with them I’m the one who’s
working extra hard they are being weak on hardcore much more hardcore than they
are I am preparing for war these guys should be working hard to be ready for
combat like I am in fact can I even rely on these guys as a young seal still
teeming with confidence after completing the world’s hardest a military training
I could easily rationalize my own behavior and at the same time denigrate
the other members of my platoon especially because in my platoon some of
the older guys weren’t in the best physical condition of course they don’t
want to do extra physical activity they are weak I am strong
they must be intimidated by me their egos are too big to handle a new guy
like me coming in and getting after it but then I thought about it from their
perspective Who am I I am a new guy i’ve never been on deployment before i had
never been through a workup before who was i to judge them what did I know then
I thought it about it from a team perspective we are a platoon we are
supposed to be a team to work together and here I was alienating myself from
the team there was a rift forming between us some of the older guys in the
platoon and me that was wrong it was disrupting the unity of the platoon
which negatively impacted our operational readiness so you know what I
did I backed off I did the extra work on my own time but when I was with the
platoon I tried to act like the rest of the guys to put it bluntly I conformed
that is something no one wants to hear that I simply conformed with the pact
people think of Jocko is hardcore he would never give in to the weakness in
the pack but that would be wrong if I were to hold my ground on this if I were
to never give in it would just mean that I thought my personal feelings were more
important than the team it would mean that I let my ego it would mean that my
ego couldn’t bear to step down and subordinate itself and conform to what
the team was doing it would announce to the world that I believed I was more
important as an individual than the team all of that is obviously the wrong
attitude to have let there be no doubt the most important thing in a team is
the team now some people might think this is weak but it isn’t the whole
reason the team exists is to accomplish the mission the more
unified the team is the more capable it is of accomplishing the mission if I am
causing a rift in the team I am hurting our mission capability yeah and I it
goes beyond that right it goes beyond just saying okay I’m gonna conform cuz
what am I trying to do with conform it goes on here if I have no relationship I
have no influence if I have no influence I can’t get them to do anything I
learned an important lesson this is skipping ahead when I go through the
kind of details of how it transferred as I would unfold it from there I learned
an important lesson I can’t change the group if I am not in the group but if
I’m in the group I can move it maybe not as much or as quickly as I want to but
at least I can move it in the right direction so that’s what this is that’s
why that that’s why the the section is called conform to influence because when
you’re not part of the team you have no influence if you’re an outsider that’s
great you held the line for yourself awesome awesome great yeah guess what
the female that asked this question down in Australia really good question at the
muster in Australia you know she said hey I’m trying to get other people on my
team to you know take care of themselves with physical fitness yeah I remember
and you know no matter what I tell them they’re not doing it and Here I am I I
work out every day I eat clean foods all day I work out after work least they see
me heading to work out they see me coming in after I got done working out
they see the foods that I’m eating and they just don’t care and you know I kind
of had to tell this story which is well how much influence are you having over
these people to improve their health when they don’t like you I don’t think I
said don’t like you but no you don’t ever lose out on that yeah well you’re
not part of their team yeah that the way you describe that in the book and we’ve
talked about it a whole bunch it’s actually kind of intuitive for
relatively new guys so you’re brand new to the platoon you’re brand new to the
squadron when I had my very first quadrant this wasn’t that hard of a
concept for me it was like alright hey I’m the new guy I’m gonna keep my mouth
shut and I’m actually I’m going conform and I’m gonna give whatever
whatever task and when I got to my first quadrant I got the most menial tasks
that you could get it was called the coffee mess officer so my job was
literally to buy coffee sell t-shirts and you know it kind of goes cyclical
would just happen to be my turn it is the most menial thing and you know what
I crushed that job I just don’t fit headfirst I just looked for any way to
get people to think Dave’s on board the team this is equally true in any
position and when I came back to that same squadron eight years later
post two combat deployments post Top Gun post fact or with with you guys hey I
came back to the same squadron as the XO I was undeniably the most tactically
capable the most well known I had all the attributes you might want and when I
showed up I didn’t start telling everybody how things that you being in
charge doesn’t mean you’re on the team as a matter of fact if you’re that bad
as a leader you’ll get a mutiny and so the same idea of conforming is true
whether you’re the junior guy or the senior guy if there are traditions of
there’s things that there’s components of the team that you aren’t unaware of
even if you’re the most senior person that can forming that showing everybody
you’re willing to get on board with that gives you a mass amount of credibility
but you don’t get to cash that in the more senior Warangal well I’m a senior
guy we’re doing it this way it’s the same rule applies to the first day in
your squadron or the most senior to include being a squadron commander you
don’t want to walk in tell everybody we’re doing things differently now just
because you’re in charge because they may not and go Roger that boss but
they’re going back and they’re not doing anything you’re asking them to do that
this idea of being tactically smart about conforming it that never goes away
actually I think we talked about this on the ground in podcast when you’re on
when you got to a tional on front after a few months you’re like oh seems like
jujitsu something that we’re doing here and you were like I had no interest in
it I didn’t really understand what it was but like that seemed like that’s
what we were doing so you said to yourself okay well well I guess I’ll
start doing some of the stuff and figure out what it’s about so I know what’s
going on I mean that’s a classic example yura
well how old were you forty-five year old he retired
colonel for the United States Marine Corps and these knuckleheads are over
here doing some random sport that you’ve never heard of okay well let’s see what
it’s about Mohammed that’s that’s legit hey so when you were being all like
fired up and stuff at that at that time was there be honest was there a part of
your brain that was like that you recognize like I’m I’m for real shit
like actively showing off right now like you know like demonstrating like how I’m
like you know my my initial response to that is to say yes so I can show
humility and be like yeah I know but honestly I really wanted to be a good
seal and as far as I could tell there were a couple people that were around
that were super hardcore and I was like hey I want to be super hardcore too so I
didn’t really think like I was honestly I was trying to be hardcore us trying to
be like ready for war that’s that’s really what my thoughts were I wasn’t
I’m trying to think there’s other thymine but there’s a million other
things that I’ve done that we’re stupid that I was like hey look at me that
really wasn’t one of them that really wasn’t one of them and you
know what it doesn’t matter because guess how it came across it came across
like I was doing so whether so that perception is reality that was the
perception the perception was I was showing off Hey look at me and that
pissed guys off none of his guys off yeah it kind of
feels like that too like in in sports it’s kind of the same deal where you get
a new person who has not proven themself at all and then they want to go the
extra mile but in this real overt way in this like real like spectacular way you
know like in your case you’re like running with these but you’re the only
one running with your boots on everyone else is doing and you know this so they
do them in this real attention getting way and it’s real obviously like like
yeah this person is is trying to like show off how hard of a worker there or
show off this or that to get kind of
recognition or attention or even respect or whatever but meanwhile the people who
have proven themselves whether the guys who’ve been there been you know overseas
or been in combat or whatever they’re kind of like well that’s not landing
with us at all you know and and I think it’s important to say that as I thought
through answering your question you know again I want to come off as like being
all humble and some like yeah you know I want but I honestly wasn’t I honestly
wasn’t and what’s even more important about this is that though the fact that
the the my intentions did not matter they didn’t matter right they didn’t
matter if I wish to tell everyone hey guys I just want to be ready for war it
didn’t matter if I was to say that what people perceived was oh you’re out here
running with a rucksack on thinking you know you think you’re cool even though I
was thinking hey aren’t we gonna carry weight when we go into combat that’s
what I was thinking hey I’m not gonna go into combat wearing running shoes I’m
gonna go wearing jungle boots so I’m wearing my jungle boots that was what I
was thinking doesn’t matter doesn’t matter the best intentions and then if
you take that in a really mature way which I’ll act but I was this is again
these are like he’s like maneuvers that I barely made you know like when the
terminator responses popped up in my eyes when guys started you know getting
a little bit more straightforward with me like who who do you think you aren’t
like that kind of thing is you know well I think I’m a seal you know what I mean
like those kind of things and actually now that I say that you know what at
this point I even have my Trident I didn’t have my SEAL training so I wasn’t
a seal so still on so that’s even that might have been when Dave talks about
like hey it’s pretty straight forward you best conformed I was definitely
feeling some of that so so it wasn’t just me being hyper mature and super
detached and able to part of it was like hey man I don’t wanna piss these guys
off these guys are guys it give me my tried it or not yeah but I definitely
felt that this was a platoon I wanted to be part of the platoon and if you’re not
part of the platoon you’re you’re you’re hurting the team
you’re truly hurting the team they need you and you need the the most powerful
thing in a platoon is the glue that holds y’all together it’s the friendship
it’s the trust it’s the relationships that you have that’s what makes a
platoon awesome when one person is outside that bond that that’s a that’s a
detriment to the team and I felt that and I didn’t want to do that so it’s
like okay I got to conform I got to get on board with what the guys are doing as
Dave said it was real obvious for Dave when he checked into a squadron like hey
I’m okay I’m I’m doing my thing here I’m doing I’m doing what people are doing
you know when in Rome do as the Romans there’s there is that and you know what
here going back to the book does this mean you follow mine and conform no
matter what to be the part of the team no absolutely not you should maintain
your individual individuality and unique personality and perspective just make
sure your personality doesn’t interfere with your ability to build relationships
within the group but what if the group is bad as I’ve said before and I cover
this in another section if it is if the group is doing some things that are
immoral illegal or unethical you have to stand up you have to be smart about but
you have to be smart about how you make your stand but participation or passive
approval of such behavior makes you culpable and then I say I cover this
section in another part on different page and then I go into like I hate what
if they’re not doing anything illegal unethical but it’s but it’s gonna be
pretty bad for the mission well then what do you do well once again is it
better for me to have an n test antagonistic relationship with everyone
on the team or is it better for me to have good relationships where I can say
hey can can we talk about what we’re doing because right now I’m feeling like
we might not be able to accomplish our mission or we’re gonna hear there’s the
difference yeah I mean we’ve all been a part of a team where there’s people on
the team that aren’t part of the team and guess I guess I was listening to
them right know is listening nobody there were there their opinion means
nothing and so what you have to do is you have to conform in order to
influence so when you when you were being all fired
you know Rambo or whatever was there any like superiors like a boss figure that
was like yeah good job like kind of maybe not even
like as a direct result of it but that you’re trying to kind of impress where I
could what I wasn’t trying to impress every anyone but it’s interesting you’re
asking these questions but I did get a vibe from some people that weren’t in my
platoon that was kind of like kind of like yeah and most of those guys were
way older yeah like way older like they weren’t come competing with me right
they weren’t in a platoon they were about they were beyond platoons and so
for them it was like oh Youngblood like I’ll tell you what when I go to the
teams now and I see some young blood that are toeing the line that gets me so
happy right I love it i’ll talk to those guys all night long I’ll hang out with
him because I like they’re not I’m not competing with them right
I’m totally gone I’m literally retired whereas maybe you’re getting you know if
I was a little bit more in the zone with them I might be like who’s this guy
think he is right they might have that attitude so there were some people that
were way above me in the chain of command that I could sense you know they
were kind of given a little nod a little nod to a new guy means a lot coming from
some dude from Nam right but didn’t really matter
inside the platoon I was doing the wrong thing right and so in a way it makes it
worse so and I’m trying to think about my scenario my past scenarios so you
know like you get a new guy at work and he’s working like extra hard doing the
right thing in a way but he’s in you we get the feeling whether it’s true or not
we get the impression strong impression by the way that he’s doing it to impress
the boss right so now we hate him though because not only do we not want to work
that hard you’re trying to basically make us look bad
to a for specific reasons were for to the specific people right so it makes it
worth that dynamic makes it worse yeah so now you’re really not part of my team
the first job I got working construction I showed up I got hired out of Wendy’s
and the guy the guy I was he had a little crew and he comes in and he looks
at me and I’m the guy with the burgers on the grill and I’m flipping burgers
and he looks at me and he goes what do you use it what are you doing
working here and I said paying rent you know I was like 16 or 17 and he says you
want to work construction I’m like oh I’m so I can’t even believe how happy I
was and I go absolutely and he goes because they were doing a project across
the street and he goes come by tomorrow morning 6 o’clock good morning well this
was like a like a customer something yeah he was getting Wendy’s hey man
who’s getting Wendy’s for here like a five man crew yeah and the next day I
show up there man I’m so happy man I turned in my Wendy’s visor bro I was so
happy show up and the first thing he tells me was there was a bunch of
concrete blocks had been dropped off a by a dump truck and they were whatever
50 meters away from where they were gonna need to be placed for the
foundation of this building we were building and so he leaves me and this
other guy Louis and Louis was a character man he had just gotten out of
prison and he was he looked like he looked like a young Robert De Niro he
was Italian and and I mean he really looked like Robert you know like he
could have played he could he could have been Robert there he looked just like
him and he just got out of prison and his he was related to the owner and so
it was you know hey can you give can you give Louis a job yeah okay so we get
tasked so they leave me and Louis there to move these blocks and bro I I am so
happy to have this job I’m running I’m running with two blocks at a time one in
each and I’m running back and forth and putting him in a position and I mean he
gave they gave us like three hours to get this done and I was done in 45
minutes and I’m not even kidding like I was getting after it but yeah it took
like ten minutes for Louis just you know tell me hey partner and actually talk
like you know wasn’t hey partner it wasn’t like this is this is the
Northeast like Italian he’s like he’s like hey you need to uh just slow it
down my friend over there and I just I told him hey you don’t need
to do anything I got this when I was I was pumped and but yeah same thing right
and like like but then that one I didn’t conform to influence I just worked so
hard I just don’t need to worry about me I’m happy I’m as happy as a person can
get to be moving some blocks around and crawling underneath foundations and
getting after it so I know no one wants to hear that right man conform to normal
it’s section three jumping ahead here maneuvers the whole section here on
using leadership to teach and build and I talked about I talked about fixing and
when someone has a negative attitude how do you fix that how do you teach someone
humility and you what we’re doing is we’re using leadership we’re using
leadership to solve so someone has a negative problem how do we how do you
fix that put them in charge we have someone that needs to get humble but
needs to learn some humility how do you do that put them in charge that’s what
you do you put them in charge of something that they can’t barely handle
and what’s interesting is sometimes you get feedback like wouldn’t it be better
like let’s say dave has big ego and wouldn’t it be better just to have a
straightforward kind of robust conversation with Dave and saying listen
Dave I think your egos a little out of control and I think you need to humble
yourself are there instances where that may work there are if Dave in addition
to having a big ego looks at me as a as a person that he can learn a lot from
and he has a ton of respect for me and that and we have a good relationship and
I can approach it in a in a way that’s indirect enough that it doesn’t offend
him and I can sit him down and and sometimes you can be direct with someone
something you got a great relationship with someone if you and I have a great
relationship and I go hey man you letting your you’ll get the best to you
if I think you’re trying to help me I’m gonna listen to you yep yep so so there
are times that that can work here’s the problem there are more times where the
reason that the person the reason that we have
a problem is because the person has a big ego in the first place that’s a
whole reason why we have the problem so when we just point-blank
tell them well we’re attacking there you go they’re gonna dig in it’s gonna get
even worse okay so there’s one example what about when we got someone that
lacks confidence and wouldn’t it be good if we could just tell them hey look Dave
have more confidence guess what the reason the person doesn’t have
confidence because they don’t have confidence just telling someone to have
more confidence is zero effect okay maybe it has 5% effect maybe it has an
8% effect but when I say hey Dave you know what you lack confidence so I want
you to have more confidence that’s not what we’re talking about when instead I
say hey Dave you know what I’ve been watching you and and I’m seeing what
you’re doing and it seems to me like you got some potential here for real
leadership and what I want to do is I want to assign a couple things to you
here in fact we got this project that we’re working on and I want you to
actually take charge of this and then Dave lacks confidence as a boss I’m not
really ready for this I go hey look let me let me just show you what the project
consists of it’s this and this it’s it’s pretty straightforward I know you’ve
actually already done this you just haven’t been the person with the name on
it look at it look at the look at what oh yeah yeah you see you can do this
cool this is a great place for you to start let’s knock this thing out of the
park and all of a sudden Dave does it and his confidence goes up a little bit
right it’s real it’s real so the idea that we can just use words look it’s an
absolutely hey I can I have a conversation with Dave and say hey Dave
you know what right now you might not feel like you’re ready but you’re ready
can i boost his confidence yes it can I’m not saying that it can’t it can okay
can I possibly say hey Dave your egos out of control and you need you needed
to start being a little bit more humble and that can work yes it can work but
for the reasons I just gave there’s a there’s the the more powerful tool is
using leadership using leadership to teach people so got a whole section in
here on that building or rebuilding confidence and by the way you don’t
necessarily need to be correcting a problem to use leadership as a as a
instruction tour you don’t need that you don’t you don’t need it
you can you can actually use leadership to teach and build just for your team
just to make them better like you don’t need to have a problem I don’t need to
go to Dave and think Oh Dave’s got big ego or
does lacks confidence or a bad attitude to say now I’m gonna put him in charge
no no I want to have an awesome team so what I’m gonna do is put people in
charge of any use leadership to build an awesome team these are things that counterintuitive answer to a lot of
people I mean when somebody asked me hey I got a person with a bad attitude and I
say put him in charge or someone says hey I got a person with a big eagle and
I say put up a charger someone says hey I’ve got a person that
that lacks confidence and I said put them in charge counterintuitive every
time that’s what but it is absolutely the
best tool yeah to educate the difference is is the leader that actually really
cares that truly cares about his people is not I’m not doing that I’m gonna put
chocolate or just so I can crush his ego I’m still actually doing it to try to
help him out that’s the difference there as opposed to watch this and then I just
roll away it on Jocko with the Biggio because what I really want to do is
crush him and assert my authority of him the leader that actually cares about its
people that really wants the team to be successful well look and then go okay
this guy’s got a problem it’s a totally understandable problem that most people
have I’m gonna use this as a tool to help them be successful I would like his
ego to be put in check as a result but I still what I really want is for him to
grow and develop and I’m using the best way to do it
the common denominator amongst the guy that’s just growing and evolving it
needs more responsibility and the dude that is out of his head and over you
know weight huge ego that needs is that I still care about both of them and so
as a leader if you’re listening to this this isn’t a punitive tool to destroy
your people whose egos are out of control
it’s a tool to help crush the biggest hindrance this person have to be
individually successful and contribute to your team but as a leader you would
need to care about that person and really want him to be successful knowing
that the best tool to do that for him is alright bro you got a big ego hey let’s
put you in charge of this you’re doing a lot of subtle things and runs but if
your whole thing is Jocko told me to just pile on this guy until I break them
that’s not what would this is about yeah and by the way it doesn’t start off hey
you got a big ego on charge this it starts off with hey Dave
man you’ve been you’ve been kind of dominating and and you know what I think
I think you can start stepping up and I got some stuff here that thinks gonna be
easy pie for you here’s the next project and Dave grabs and goes I got this yeah
but as you know again this is all explained in detail the books of how
much what what level of project are you going to give we want it to be enough
that we’re not crossing over with that project yeah right totally and it’s just
for me it’s eager to get wrapped around it easy to get wrapped around the idea
of fixing this person’s problem but what a good leader really does is looks at
all his people even the ones that are doing all the things that that frustrate
you is handling it help it’s the same thing with my kids I got my kids doing
things that drive me nuts that I want to crush but I’m actually doing because I
want them to be successful over time not because I just want to prove the point
of overwhelming them with responsibility to them to their to their breaking point
you have to know that what you’re actually trying to do is make this
person get better did you use this word hindrance which is it’s so important to
understand that the problem that you’re trying to fix the ego is the hindrance
to why the direct conversation isn’t as effective as real-world experience
same thing with someone that lacks confidence that the the the problem is
the hindrance when I lack confidence me being told that my confident that I
should have more isn’t enough to propel me past it just like when someone tells
me I need to be more humble that’s not compelling enough for me to
actually get humble because I already think I’m awesome and when I lack
confidence I don’t think I’m good enough so what we need is to actually reinforce
with compelling methods how to improve people in this paradigm of of problems
that they have and that’s why the direct approach almost never works
yeah yeah the amount of people the amount of relationships that are so
strong that this sort of hey just going to hit you
with the direct feedback is you know tiny percentage tiny percentage of
relationships yeah and if your relationship actually is that strong
that problem that you’re dealing with would never get to an out of control
state anyway so if you’re contemplating the direct approach it’s such a narrow
narrow narrow times to use that yeah all right yeah be subtle once again jump to
the section leading peers leading peers is one of the most challenging types of
leadership when rank and position are equivalent more tact is needed and an
even better relationship must be built once the relationship is built you can
use influence to lead the team in the right direction this is not a bad thing
since influence is always the preferred method of leading I’ll say that again
influence is always the preferred method of leading influence is especially
critical when leading peers influence can be a challenge to develop with peers
because when rank is equivalent eCos often become more visible right rank my
superior rank tiers has some level of trumping your ego beating down your ego
when when there’s no rank when the ranks are equivalent all of a sudden the egos
becomes the rank in many cases people are always either looking to prop
themselves up to get an edge on others if you allow your ego to manifest itself
when working with peers you will draw out you the worst of your peers ego as
well egos must be subdued start with subduing
your own if you fail to subdue your ego you will develop an antagonistic
relationship with your peers that will result in a blue on blue the military
parlance for friendly fire which means you will end up destroying your own team
don’t allow that to happen take the high ground and put your ego in check yeah
hey how do you do that here’s it again here’s the tactics of it one of the best
ways to subdue your own egos and start building a relationship with your peers
is by supporting their ideas they might come up with a plan that’s slightly
different from yours but if it’s functional and will get the job done
support it let them take the lead don’t feel the need to stick your chest out
the flexure ideas instead support your peers ideas even if you
your ideas better if your peers ideas close go with it straight forward and I
do talk about the fact that some people you know you might take offense to that
when I say hey hey Dave why don’t you lead this you might be thinking will you
try to get me to do all the work yeah so you have to monitor that as well
you’ve got people people are crazy people are crazy people are crazy it’s
connected to what you were just talking about at the rambo scenario to is you
use the word competition look piers my assumption is
that in the SEAL Teams it’s exactly the same with just other things when
everybody gets to a fighter squadron everybody wants to go to Top Gun it’s
unspoken nobody walks in and goes I want to go to Top Gun or I want to go to
weapons school I want to be a senior instructor but everybody knows that’s
what you’re competing about and you might have nine guys all checked in
within the same time they’re all peers and don’t pretend like there’s not
competition amongst your team all vying to have whatever that opportunity is
it’s not topping on the teams it’s it’s something else it’s whatever is relevant
so that competition is there and so that is another component of why leading your
peers is so hard because there is a competition piece of that to that the
what got you there is the same thing that gets you to want to be successful
there as well I didn’t get to my first squadron to say well my whole goal was
just to be a pilot I’m here I’m done I’m just gonna ride this wave to shore I got
there and like okay what’s the next level on this mountain that I’m climbing
which was that next thing and out of the nine guys in my squadron though that
were there nine guys wanted to go to Top Gun and so you’re competing with them
over things that are hugely important for them so it makes that leading your
peers thing even harder when done incorrectly you can actually torpedo the
entire squadron when those nine guys are fighting against each other so much so
that it undermines that squadron and guess what nobody’s going to Top Gun
none of those guys are going anywhere to include you and that subtle art of
leading your peers if you couldn’t get that down early in your career that
carries you that will carry you forever because once you get on top of that is
now you get more positional Authority more influence makes things a little bit
easier if you get some credibility because you’re in charge but what you’re
leveraging is the skill you got at the beginning that’s part of the reason why
those lesson you talk about early in the book are so
important is that the foundation to be a good leader starts wait earlier than you
think you’re on the clock the minute you show up to any team even as a junior guy
and the right frame of mind gets you to absorb more things early on so you can
leverage that moving down the road that is hard to do for a young person
especially when you’re competing with the other 8 News that want the exact
same thing that you want you’re on the clock on the clock man I go on here
this is given for a limit if one of your peers egos is out of control they begin
a maneuver to make themselves look good or even make you look bad don’t fall
into the ego trap don’t attack them simply continue to do great work and put
the mission first they might get some initial positive attention from their
selfish actions but eventually they will be uncovered take the high ground or
high ground they’ll take you you know that’s like the guy that doesn’t pass
information about you know what technique you’re using when you’re
flying your jet just gonna keep that to yourself it’s like mmm
everyone’s gonna figure that out and those traps are so easy to fall into
because you want to you want to go hard as soon as you see that you talked about
you’ve talked about truth bombs in the past and people kind of throw those
little subtle lies a little kind of indication you have to hold the high
ground and know that sooner or later that approach that they’re taking that’s
a losing approach and that instant gratification does not come it’s not
gonna happen that day it’s gonna frustrate the hell out of you but that
if you get pulled into that you will lose you will lose as well you’ve got to
stay on the high ground there there it’s so easy to get trapped by that so easy
to just and it’s like from from the boss’s perspective when you see the guy
that’s trying to torpedo to other people and it might take you a minute to
realize yeah right it might take you might take the boss a little time and
don’t be the rat either right oh god no yeah you don’t want to be the rat either
but you keep you focus on the mission you focus on doing the right thing that
rats gonna that rats get his tail is gonna be its seen it’s gonna get caught
in the trap you can’t hide ya got a section
micromanaging indecisive or weak bosses and I talk about
we do how do we handle them when I talking about the weak boss because I do
a little section for each of those but the weak boss there are some Pig losses
who are just plain lackluster my boss is weak it is horrible
I’ve heard this complaint over and over again I never looked at a weak boss as
horrible I always looked at a weak boss as an opportunity if my boss doesn’t
want to come up with a plan guess what I will if my boss doesn’t want to clarify
the mission guess what I will if my boss doesn’t want to take ownership guess
what I will and if my boss doesn’t want to lead guess what I will so that’s
pretty straightforward you can probably imagine there’s a but coming but be
cautious as with micromanaging bosses or indecisive bosses with a weak boss you
have to be careful when you step up to lead even with the feeblest and weakest
of bosses sorry even the feeblest and weakest of bosses have egos and if you
offend them they may lash out at you so don’t be offensive or overly assertive
when you start to make things happen use soft language and frame things in
ways that do not diminish the boss’s ego but actually boost it here’s some
examples hey boss I know you got a lot going on so I was thinking it might be
helpful if I jumped on this project over here and moved it forward and move
forward with it would that be alright or hey boss I’m sorry for being slow on the
update but I just want to make sure I fully understand your vision do I have
it right when I say yeah there you go put the vision in their mouth hey boss
I’m just trying to step up my game would you mind if I took a crack at planning
this next project so I can get some experience so that’s what you do you
don’t violate your relationship you don’t treat a weak bomb this is a
guarantee you know you know like a dog right and talking to Mike Ritland when I
was looking to get my dog he said he’s giving me advice and tests to give my
dog the dog that’s like weak that’s the dog that snaps at you right the dog
that’s scared that’s the dog that snaps at you and bites your kid or bites
someone the dog that’s confident the dog that’s strong that ones comfortable like
they’re good and this is the same thing people think oh the boss is weak I can
walk all over them yeah try that see how it works out that guy’s gonna bite you
that boss is gonna bite you yeah so you need to use caution in that scenario jumping forward here to the merely
indefensible leader the nearly and this comes on and I’m talking about a bunch
of things about how what you do how you defend your leader how you how you take
your leaders ideas on board and move forward them like we’re talking about
that right we’re supporting our leader we’re talking about that so continuing
on here it’s always good to support your leader if you undermine a leader it not
only hurts them it also hurts the morale of the troops as well as you as a
subordinate leader you are setting an example if the example you set is one of
disrespect up the chain of command you can expect much the same from the people
you’re leading so think about that you’re setting the example if you’re
talking smack about your boss they’re gonna talk smack about you and that’s a
little trap you can fall into to because if you Dave and I are working for echo
and echos whatever got problems week jacked up one really easy way for you
for me to bond with you Davis be like echo sucks and you go yeah and we’re
bonding but it’s not good it’s not good so continuing on when presenting a plan
to your troops that you don’t necessarily agree with you could say
well I don’t agree with this plan but is what the boss is telling us to do so we
have to do it anyway then everyone goes gives an example like that clearly that
is not a good approach they will see that you don’t believe in the plan and
if you don’t believe in it why should anyone on your team believe
in it and if no-one believes in it then why on earth should the team actually
execute it when a decision is made or a course of action comes down from the
chain of command you must execute it as if it were your own
sure you can debate your boss behind about what course of action you think is
best but once the decision has been made you get on board and execute to the best
of your ability you tell the troops the boss and I talked through this for quite
a while and when you look at it from all different angles especially considering
some of the bigger picture effects I actually think this is the best solution
for how we execute so we’re gonna get it done like okay you know okay that’s cool
and this is this stuff is just so nuanced and yeah we already talked about
some of it on the last podcast now how do you explain when you’re doing
something that maybe doesn’t make as much sense as you want it to and and by
the way the whole belief thing like if I don’t believe in what we’re doing real
problem and I talked about that as well but here we go
but there are times so I’m saying hey when the bond if the boss is doing like
like reasonable stuff borderline reasonable right or the things that you
were talking about I think it was on the last podcast Dave it’s like hey we’re
the chances of me getting ordered to do something that is legitimately
catastrophic are so small so we’re not talking about that most of the time
we’re talking about something like a handle 100 agree with us but we’re gonna
work we’re gonna build the relationship I’m gonna build a relationship enough so
that you know my boss is never going to tell me you gonna let me do whatever I
want that’s what I’m gonna get to I promise I’m gonna get you get there with
my boss I promise that that’s what’s gonna happen so we’re not talking about
that now now we start talking about a boss that is nearly in defense
indefensible there are times when the boss can be nearly indefensible notice
I’m saying nearly perhaps she is egotistical or arrogant maybe he is
condescending to the troops or maybe the boss makes bad decisions over and over
again in these cases blindly defending the boss will put you at odds with the
team members they see and know the boss is horrible and if you blindly defend
them if you Bily defend the boss your credibility takes a hit but that doesn’t
mean that openly belittling or disparaging the boss is a good option
that behavior from you leaps to complete disrespect from the
team and a failure of good order and discipline you have
balance defending the boss with connecting with the troops here are some
phrases that convey the right message that even if you don’t have the highest
regard for your boss you still value the importance of accomplishing the mission
so that’s the scenario you got your boss that is like bad they’re not good but
you can’t openly disparage them because they’re not doing any any hanging
offenses right they’re not doing anything or ordering to cata strophic
missions so here’s the type of language we’re gonna use to the to the troops
listen the Boston that might not be perfect but he is driving us toward the
same strategic goal we want to accomplish so we’re moving another one
look the boss mate might not be ideal but she still gives us the support we
need and the better we perform the more support we will get there he go lucky
Allah on that fine line here’s another one
hey the boss has some quirks but we know where he stands so we work with him to
the best of our abilities which means dealing with those quirks so we can get
the job done another one complaining about the boss doesn’t get us anywhere
and it doesn’t make our jobs easier what we can do is try to form a good
relationship with her so we can influence her in the right direction so
that’s what you do and by the way none of these are none of these are lies
these are like the truth these are what you should do these are what you are
doing as a leader dude I was just thinking about that that section earlier
of telling the truth and there’s a common thread in every type of boss do a
really good job and support us best you can good bosses bad bosses micromanager
lays a fair wants all the credit is afraid of if you do that in almost every
situation you’re gonna get towards the outcome that you want and if you
actually have if you have a hard time with your team walking back from a
meeting we’re okay setting aside the one-in-a-million catastrophic just like
stupid plan nobody really likes it they don’t really want to do it they can’t
really get behind it what does it say about you as a leader to come out of
that meeting jock when I go back and forth for hours
at the end this is the planner moving forward hey team hey listen up here’s
what we’re doing okay all the grumblings push back if I can’t go guys listen I
understand I understand some of those frustrations but listen here’s the deal
we actually have a lot of influence here a lot a lot of control what the best
thing we can do is get through this as quickly as you can as effectively can’t
and move on to other things what does this say about you as a leader when
you’re people like no we’re not gonna do it the plan is that stupid and and the
last thing you want to do is convey the yeah we shouldn’t do this this is really
stupid and he’s an idiot most of this almost all the time when I
find myself and I’ve I’ve implemented really dumb plans for my boss a million
times and just about every time I told my guys we’re gonna do you know they
said okay boss and you know what they just go do it the job gets done and you
move along and that’s kind of how it happens and so if your people are
pushing back so hard against the bad boss the problem probably isn’t your bad
boss the problem really is with you and the solution to that is the exact same
solution when I work for the best leaders I’ve ever worked with in my
career do a really good job and support them as best I can and just move on very
good advice I I go into a section here that’s called punishment punishment be
punishment must be dealt out at times but a good leader should need to use it
seldomly afoot if a leader gives good clear guidance about what needs to be
done how it needs to be done why it needs to be done and what the
consequences are if it is not done correctly the troops should carry out
what has been asked of them so I’ll just continue if for some reason your troops
don’t execute the plan then of course you should first look in the mirror do
not assume the troops have simply decided to do what decided not to do
what was required to them instead assume you did not give them appropriate
direction and that is the reason for the transgression
you have confirmed that a rule was violated or direction not followed even
though it was understood some punishment must be meted out again this should be
rare because if a leader is doing his or her job correctly members of the team
will understand what how and why they are doing what they are doing and
executed appropriately the need to punish someone on the team is almost
always a direct reflection of the leader and the failure to lead appropriately
this might seem extreme and in fact it is it is extreme ownership if a team
members late perhaps the leader failed to explain the importance of being on
time if the team member fails to complete their portion of a project
perhaps the leader didn’t give the support required if a team member drinks
alcohol and gets into trouble with the police
perhaps the leader failed to set clear parameters around drinking the list
could go on indefinitely a leader is always responsible for the actions of
his or her subordinates so punishment you know and then I go look I get into
it I get into the fact that sometimes punishments do need to take place but
man the amount of times that I punished people like that I gave legitimate
punishment to people that have worked for me is it’s it’s a it’s less than I
mean it can count on one hand where this person like knowingly violated something
and it was just you need to you you need to pay you need to pay the man on that
one but it should happen so rarely got a section in here called when to quit again no one wants to hear that no one
wants to hear that one of the mantras and the SEAL Teams has never quit that
is one of the main refrains utilized during seal basic SEAL training and it
makes a lot of sense during that training because that is how you make it
through you don’t quit no matter what training evolution comes along no matter
how hard it is no matter how tired sore frustrated exhausted or otherwise broken
you are you don’t quit that is how you make it through SEAL training and that
is how you eventually become a seal but when you get to the actual SEAL Teams
that extreme attitude has to be adjusted it has to be modulated because if it
isn’t it can lead to disaster the classic example of this is the young
seal leader who has made it through the basic seal training and shows up at the
seal time team he has heard the mantra mantra never quit thousands and
thousands of times he has yelled to his friends and whispered it to himself it
has become ingrained in his head and I go through a scenario which is one of
many where guess what what what you just what you need to do is actually quit you
need to stop you need to stop what you’re doing you need it you’re gonna
get your entire platoon killed you’re gonna you’re gonna destroy this
situation that you’re in and you need to be able to detach look around and figure
out a different way of course no one wants to hear that but if you are
patrolling towards a target and they open up with multiple bunkered machine
guns with interlocking field of fire on your avenue of approach and you decide
you’re not gonna quit guess what everyone’s going to die so I
go through that and I go I go through how we measure that when is the
appropriate time why it’s the appropriate thing to do so I even talk
about some of the classic examples right Dunkirk yeah
Dunkirk guess what that was quitting General George Washington led the
retreat of continental forces out of New York and escaped that was crucial for
the ability of the Revolutionary Army to continue to fight later engagements and
win by the way so what are we talking about yeah we’re talking about tactical
and and I explained this in the book strategic like we’re not gonna quit on
our strategic goals but a tactical situation we might quit on yeah I mean
you said it obviously they’re talking about tactics the tactical decision is
actually enforcing what matters which is not winning that engagement it’s winning
the war and if I’m flying around my airplane and I get engaged with three
aircrafts and I have 500 pounds of usable gas and my wingman just went home
with an emergency you know and I need to run away I need a set but we call
separated I need to set up a plan R I can separate and they leave this fight I
need to run away from this fight I need to quit this engagement and get away and
nothing about that sounds sexy none of it sounds rewarding none of it
sounds good in any way and the story they want is like oh I turn decisively
and get I will die I’ll be in a parachute I’ll be dead whatever it is
quitting tactics is actually just inner of decision-making going oh you know
what this isn’t work this isn’t getting me towards my goal and I’m just
maneuvering in another direction the worst thing you can do is when we decide
to fight in an aircraft you and I’ve met you’re a bad guy I’m a good guy we
decide to get to an engagement when we turn we call that anchoring and there’s
a reason it’s called anchoring because just like with a ship that has dropped
anchor guess what you’re not going anywhere
you are gonna anchor right there and you can’t and your decisions have now gone
from an infinite number of decisions down to one which is I’m gonna sit here
and turn until one of us dies you know what that does to every other person
involved in this engagement though 50 other airplanes or the Sam they all know
I’m right there I have almost no maneuvering room I have no options and
the likelihood that I’m gonna anchor and survive are very very small but people
want that satisfying answer of never ever ever quit we see this in the FTX
all the time send me two more they’re dead to get the other two okay then –
they’re dead and now you’re saying it so plainly but it’s that mantra and then in
there – never quit and they don’t understand that you’re talking about a
tactical versus a strategic thing and that’s the biggest difference yeah don’t
anchors similar I guess then – don’t dig in don’t dig in because right you’re
gonna give up your ability to maneuver exactly what is that because once you
once you decide you’re gonna fight you just don’t have the aircraft doesn’t
have the capability to just get out of there it’s two reasons one no different
than you as a task unit commander looking down the sides of your rifle
so I’m now decisively with one of the aircraft 100% of my
attention is on that aircraft 100% I have zero bandwidth for anything else
and to those fights a hundred percent of the time go from fast speed to slow
speed because you’re turning so all your energy all your manoeuvring all the G’s
slow their planes down so you go from four or 500 knots down to usually about
a hundred and fifteen knots and you can have the most advanced airplane in the
world when you’re turning around 115 knots you’re a Cessna you’re just
sitting there slow compared to now and so you don’t see anything else is
happening and you have no literal manoeuvre maneuvering speed so you’re
slow and you can’t you’re not paying attention anything else because I
stopped looking to you I look elsewhere you’re gonna kill me it’s it’s you have
no options so anchoring an aviation is the exact
same thing as digging in and once you do it you have no options and this
conversation based around a one-on-one fighting and this was a revelation to me
last time that the conversation around one-on-one
fighting is not very realistic because we’re not I’m not gonna be alone
no now you and I might end up in a one-on-one fight but the other 20
airplanes aren’t in that one-on-one fight and they’re all gonna focus on
that and when one of the two of us is gonna get picked off by our by our
allies by threats by the but by our friends so you and I might be fighting
one against one and then you’re gonna get blasted by echo charlie even if my
phone it’s right even if I beat you even if I win that fight that that dogfight
you he’s already behind you he’s yeah if I get maybe a matter of time but the
likelihood there is no such thing where the enemy takes off
let’s want launched one aircraft and the Americans responded we’ll gonna launch
one aircraft it never happens like that so you might be in a one-on-one fight
but there’s twenty other airplanes out there are you is our strategy is the
strategy of air combat hey we’re gonna send more planes than you it used to be
we thought well that’s been a cycle that was the Russian strategy in the 80s just
build a whole bunch of airplanes 70’s and 80’s and turns out that we
discovered that with technology we could build less that were way better and I
have a system that could take down six years for you know for every every one
of mine can shoot down six years sending the strategist ship to technology and
now we leverage that we actually don’t think mass in and of itself is what we
need to do we actually need to have the ability
– guess what maneuver maneuver and no more than you have more awareness and
more information to be able to focus on much more than just one thing and so
technology isn’t just about being high-tech it’s about giving the pilot
more information about more different things we’re going on which is the exact
same thing as a pilot I no longer need to stare down the scope of my rifle I
don’t need to look at my sights I actually have a system that lets me look
at 15 different things at the same time and have high fidelity information to
decide on I can think strategically in a one-man fighter which nobody ever
thought was possible but it actually is possible if you can detach and you use a
great language and here used to talk about detach not just physically but
detaching mentally aircraft now allow pilots to detach mentally in ways they
never could before and are their aircraft that are detached
from the situation that are monitoring so am i as the air mission commander or
whatever the name is am i some guy that’s at whatever 30,000 feet or 10
nautical miles away and I can see this entire thing on radar and I can be like
Dave D hey everyone Dave’s in a fight it’s you know yeah you know attack –
intact for go take go support him I would I would still compare it much more
to like a platoon commander on a platoon size operation or a task you make that
you’re there but you’re you’re physically detached but not like
literally you know back away so it’s not like I’m in a platoon on the ground and
someone in a talk away away that can barely doesn’t really know what’s out
there trying to give you directions because that’s what that comparison
that’s right got it check all right
just skip into another section here rumor control if rumors are running
rampant in your organization and you might think why am i quiet why would I
need to put this in here because you and I both have seen rumors just decimate
companies quickly maybe decimates a strong word that it is too strong reward
both rumors get out of control we have seen rumors get out of control and start
to hurt companies where where they can be decimated you know
that might not be the final blow isn’t the rumor but it can definitely be a
contributing factor to a real bra to real significant downfalls yeah
if rumors are running rampant in your organization you have you have created
the environment to allow them to grow the environment that rumors growing is
one of which there’s lack of information if you don’t tell people what’s going on
they will make up their own versions and their versions will not be pretty once
and by the way I think this whole section right here that we’re in is
actually called communication yeah so we’re in the you know in an entire
section of the book called communication because that’s what that’s what
leadership is leadership is communicating with other human beings so
yeah man I I think that that idea which I kind of start this chapter off with or
the section off with with explaining what it’s like in a patrol and how the
word gets passed back and if you’re in the back of the patrol you just have no
idea what’s happening and that’s another thing that just left such a mark on me I
could have put that I could have put that as one of the fundamental kind of
underlying characteristics in the beginning of this book which is
understanding how important communication was in an organization and
knowing what it’s like to be a frontline trooper and have no idea what’s
happening but because it’s so directly tied to communication I led the
communication section with that but man the idea of keeping the troops informed
is is right up there with the underlying leadership principles that I learned as
a young seal so getting back to the rumor thing get the word out ahead of
rumors just like on Patrol and again that’s
referencing the story you need to keep the troops informed need to lay some
people off explain why have to discontinue a product tell the troops
why shutting down an office communicate the reason to your people
all of these are tough subjects to cover it’s easy to find excuses not to talk
about them and it is certainly more comfortable to keep your mouth shut and
hope no one notices but they absolutely will
notice and they will fill in the reasons with their own ideas need to lay some
people off the rumor will be we’re going out of business have to discontinue a
product same thing we are going out of business
shutting down an office now it is absolutely certain we are going out of
business so you have to combat those things and the way you do it is by
telling the truth explain me people think that’s happening hey you know
another good point this is an earlier chapter vote and you mentioned it but we
didn’t cover it I have a section on telling the truth and that seems like
it’s really easy but there are tricky situations it’s hard to do but one of
the one of the things that I cover in that section is sometimes you can’t tell
the truth and then you might get someone like Sam Harris that says no Jocko you
should always tell the truth so Sam I’m sorry you’re wrong
eat and then I can give you some situations there’s two situations that
are really obvious you can’t tell the truth in a situation well let me
rephrase that you can’t well you’ll see what I mean if
there’s a legal battle going on there are times and we work with companies
like this they have a legal scenario unfolding and they cannot discuss it
which means they can’t tell people what’s going on and in the military it
was oh we had compartmentalized information that we literally cannot
share it is against the law you are not need to know and I cannot tell you so
therefore does that impede us from telling the truth the answer now we’re
back supporting Sam Harris Sam yes we can’t tell the truth the truth is hey
Dave listen I really want to explain to you what’s going on here but you know
that there’s a legal a legal suit going on and we cannot discuss this and I
cannot tell you I can tell you these things around it but I cannot tell you
the actual piece of information you want as soon as we are allowed to tell you
legally believe me I’ll fill you in or in the military hey look Dave I
understand that you want to know where this piece of information is coming from
it is actually need-to-know and compartmentalized and I cannot I cannot
tell you as soon as this thing because Declassified or as soon as you get the
need to know believe me I’ll fill you in but until then you know
the deal man we gotta follow the rules and and believe and also what the
information that you want to know it’s not significant enough that it’s gonna
matter that’s okay so we do want to tell the truth so Sam you’re you’re back in
the game the tool you have to have that conversation is is they have to trust
you yes the tool we have is trust and the
way you cultivate that trust is every other opportunity you have that you’re
not hamstrung by these things you’re telling everything that you can
everything you can possibly let them know the big picture you’ve done that so
much you’ve made so many leadership capital deposits so many the time you go
hey man look there’s a couple reasons why I can’t do this they go got it
Barbara I understand so factor and they just go off and back into the other
thing and it’s and it’s not an issue yeah having a good relationship with
people is just it’s so important it solves so many problems I mean just just
whatever you do whenever you do these little miniature one-man role plays with
yourself like all the podcasts and you’re always like you know usually
conclude through something like I got it bro like and there’s been times where
you’ve said that to me like I ain’t got it you know what I mean like yeah well
let me get back to you on that I’ve got it you know yeah and it’s like that’s
just the way it is why because I know you care about me you know I care about
you I trust you you trust me it’s like okay hey man got it you know I don’t
even want you to tell me yeah you tell me what you need me to I got it yeah no
factor yeah you know what since we are talking about selling delivering the
truth I’m gonna actually jump into this little section right here which is
called tactfully delivering the truth when delivering criticism it is
important to do it with consideration and delicacy if you punch someone in the
face with criticism they will become defensive and are unlikely to take the
criticism on board so a more indirect approach is needed and again that’s what
we just talked about with the other section which is oh look I’m just going
to tell them what’s up you need to control your ego you know that’s gonna
work out great okay so how do we do this
how do we tell the truth tactfully okay here first care about your people that’s
number one care about your people if you truly care about them they will know
that and they will accept your criticism more easily and this is this is
something that I fought about talking with Flynn and when I was the OIC of
trade at I was actually listening to Flynn at the muster and he was talking
about these savage debriefs that I would give and I have some recorded I’ll play
him for you sometimes oh they’re savage yeah I was coming off the top ropes I
mean I was coming off the top ropes and as I’m sitting there listening it to
Flynn because even at that time like Flynn Cochran not hard guy to read right
like like he’s he’s not a guy that’s like hey I’m not sure what he’s thinking
like you know you’re looking at Flynn you’re like okay I see where’s that Lafe
same thing right Lafe is like hey you know what is that what is that term
where’s where your motion on your sleeves right leaf is no stranger life
is not shy about saying hey I’m not exactly uh good and he’s I mean imagine
you know at least in it like now but imagine when life was or whatever right
not exactly able to contain his emotions or hide his emotions so as I’m listening
to Flynn up there talking about how I used to give these savage debriefs and
Sorelli the same thing right like how hard is it to tell when sir Ellie’s
pissed off it’s like so easy right so when I’m sitting there listening some
thinking man I used to debrief these guys now all those guys every one of
them I gave them debriefs that were born full right and I’m
thinking myself why how is it that on any of their faces any of their faces I
never saw that look of like screw you you know what shut up you don’t know
what you’re talking about never and and I relied
was the same with like I had one guy that had that that I could read that on
that I put through training and he’s the guy that in podcast number five I wrote
a counseling letter for which I very seldom did and explained to him that he
was not gonna make it in the SEAL Teams if he didn’t be morale if he wasn’t
didn’t become more humble and a bunch of other things but that’s a guy that I
could I could see on his face like when I was debriefing him he was pissed but
every now thing I mean I’d debriefs hundreds of guys and and yet they would
always be like Roger you know like that kind of like they disappointed me like
it wasn’t they were disappointed that that’s the that’s the feeling I always
got from Flynn was I can you know Roger or from life like Roger you know like
that’s what that’s what I always got back why is that it’s real easy the
reason is because all those guys knew and and the guys that I was putting
through training knew more than anything else in the world I cared about them and
I knew that they were going overseas and I knew that they’re going into combat
and more than anything else I wanted them to be able to accomplish the
mission and I wanted them and their guys to be safe and okay and come home and
they knew that so when it comes to delivering truthful feedback the number
one thing is to care about your people number one and then the next thing is
take ownership of your problem of the problem itself of course extreme
ownership should be the fundamental principle used utilized by any leader
and our tactics of employing extreme ownership when trying to critique a
subordinate you utilizing extreme ownership while providing feedback might
sound like this here’s some tactical maneuvers instead of saying you failed
to get the project done on time use what support or assets could I have given you
so that we could have gotten the project done on time instead of saying you fail
to meet the mission objectives try using I don’t think I did a good job
of explaining the mission objective did you fully understand it instead of
saying your lack of professionalism caused this client to go to our
competitor try saying I think I allowed things to get too
slack around here in terms of our professionalism I think that’s one of
the reasons why we lost that client to one of our competitors now there’s guaranteed to be people
listening this right now that are thinking whoa yeah that’s weak you
should just tell them how are they ever gonna understand what you’re talking
about and it goes back to this when I attack
them they’re not listening that’s all there is to it when I attack them
they’re hustling now if you have a great relationship with you if they know you
care about them if you know that if they know that you have their best their best
interests and that’s why you’re talking to him yeah you can you can go harder
and also when you get people that you try indirect approaches on and it fails
well then you escalate your directness and overtime until you’re eventually
like listen you failed this project and this is not acceptable and if it happens
like yes you get there totally absolutely don’t start there
don’t start there and by the way also this is in the book is important to take
note that these are not simply techniques you are utilizing so your
pesky subordinate falls into line that is not the point the point of all these
statements and the whole point of taking ownership is that you must truly believe
what you are saying and you should because the ownership statements in
those examples are not simply lip-service they are true if the leader
follows up with the team members and make sure that they have all the support
and assets they needed to complete the job on time then the job will get done
on time if a leader correctly explains the mission in simple clear concise
manner and then ensures it is understood by the team the team will accomplish the
mission if a leader fails to emphasize the importance of professionalism then
it should come as no surprise that subordinates fail to act professionally
yes it’s on you the leader so that’s that eskalene we wrote about the
escalation of counseling in the dichotomy of leadership same thing with
direct versus indirect in direct versus direct we start off indirect and
generally that’s gonna work and by the way if it doesn’t work you have
somewhere to go you have somewhere to escalate to if you go direct and it
doesn’t work that’s it you’re at options you’re out options not only not only is
it your only shot but it is a shot that has less chance of doing the job it’s
got way less chance and if you start with the indirect approach and it
doesn’t work what you get to do simultaneously with it with this
required escalation is to reflect on yourself as hey why am I not what am I
not doing that I can’t get through to this person you can actually start to
look at what you’re doing wrong when you go to the direct approach you’ve already
come to the conclusion that 100% of the problem is that other person and so what
you don’t get to do in that same process is go man what am I missing here that
this more subtle indirect approach isn’t getting through to this person I work
with every single day and that is every bit as important if not even more
important than that required escalation which you most certainly need to do which is looking at why what is it you
haven’t done or what is the problem that you have created that that isn’t working
out of it out of the gates and it’s apparently subtlety is becoming a solid
word amongst us right now because really that the correction that you give you
give the most subtle correction possible and you escalate from there yeah and if
I do it right if I do it right I’ve put you back on course Dave and you didn’t
even know that I touched your compass totally like I I just nudged your
steering wheel you don’t even know you like looked over your right you said
wait wait oh I’m good well you don’t even know what happened yeah and that is
what we want and you know what sometimes I nudged that and it doesn’t
course-correct and now I have to nudge a little bit
harder and at some point yes I may have to take
hold of the steering wheel and be really direct yes it does happen you did there
that demo at the muster and I think we’ve done it too now there’s actually
sort of an ideal way that that we should all aspire to be able to communicate
with the closest people on our team that aren’t doing the things we want them to
do which is when I can look at you or you can look at me and go bro and that
is that isn’t that’s all the correction that is required that is all the
feedback that I need to hear from you and look at me and go bro and I go I got
it and I go solve whatever that problem is whether it’s I came in late to work
insert whatever the promise that is as a leader what you’re actually aspiring to
is to be able to have a type of relationship that I can look at the
people around me and say that one word or no words
certainly I just like that example whenever he’s away for this big long
speech you need to give me like bro yeah yeah yes somebody asked yeah what if I
had decided that this was important and I needed to counsel Lafe on this right
issue what if I decided it was the time to I needed to get direct with him and I
was like oh I would have walked into his office with a piece of paper that showed
what the problem was and I want to said bro and Lafe would have gone bro I’m
sorry I got this don’t ever worry about it again yeah and that’s the way it
would have gone down yeah like and and as as funny it’s kind of as humorous
that that interaction was on the stage and as funny as it might sound listening
to it that’s totally a real thing that’s only
legit like you could have a close relationship with everybody in your team
by which you can just look at them or kind of just say that one word and it
isn’t but it’s real and they’ll go dude that’s that problem is handled you will
never have to come back here ever again about that thing ever yeah and and it’s
done and you move on that is that is that is the way that things are supposed
to work really the escalation of counseling starts with zero words yeah
starts with a glance and no Anna and uh and a 4-millimeter
raise and they I think you know that’s it that’s never like a you get the
responses of a shake of the head signifying no or a nod of the head
signifying I got it and there’s not another word spoken because it’s a
problem solved yeah I had had to throw this one in men ultimatums ultimatums
are not optimal leadership tools like digging in they allow no room to
maneuver no one likes being trapped and controlled but there are extremely rare
times when ultimatums can and should be utilized when enough is truly enough
then an ultimatum can be used and when it is used the leader must hold the
liner to hear to it never make an ultimatum
you can’t keep and I’ve got a few sections in here making an ultimatum as
the boss and the reason I had to talk about this oh here we go if you feel you
have to issue an ultimatum to your subordinates one of the first things you
should ask yourself is where did my leadership fail because the fact the
matter is as a leader you should be able to get what you need out of your
subordinates through solid leadership not ultimatums explaining why a task is
important to the strategic mission and how achieving that mission will
ultimately benefit everyone on the team should be enough to get people to do
what they need to do that is no easy feat and sometimes it takes considerable
time and effort to communicate that information properly but sometimes no
matter how hard you try you can’t get the message through in those cases
ultimatums are a tool of last resort after all other efforts to get an
individual to do what they are supposed to do have failed I mean you should use
an ultimatum so rarely yeah once an ultimatum has been delivered it can’t be
reversed which is one of the biggest problems in giving them ultimatums by
their very nature emo a movable object can’t be adjusted that makes this makes
the people you delivered them to feel trapped and no one likes feeling trapped
if you do make an ultimatum and don’t keep it your credibility is gonna take a
hit yeah all that being said if you have done everything in your power if you’ve
coach mentor to persuade an individual to do something and they still will not
do it then it might make sense to give them an ultimatum make it explicit not
only in the requirements of what needs to be done but also in the consequences
of exactly what will happen if the ultimatum is not met use no uncertain
terms and ensure that the individual fully understands again I mean
ultimatums are very rare I got a section on making ultimatums as
a subordinate which we see which obviously you know and I there is their
time yeah there’s a time but when it’s you know very rare you better have your
ducks in a row big time and I talk about dealing with an
ultimatum that gets placed on you which this is this happens right this happens
so what should you do when your boss puts an ultimatum on you tell the truth
you should start with telling yourself the truth do a hard honest assessment a
situation and figure out if what you are being tasked with is actually possible
are you making every possible effort to achieve the task is there anything else
you and your team can do to get the job done if the answer to these questions
indicates that you can do more then redouble your efforts and do more there
you go you should also tell your team members the truth let them know the
ultimatum has been placed on you and there by the team and explain why you’re
going to all dig in and do your absolute best to get the job done hopefully after
pulling out all the stops and getting after it like you have never gotten
after it before you and the team are able to deliver on the ultimatum you get
a high-five from your boss tell your team well done and move on to the next
project unfortunately that doesn’t always happen often the reason the
ultimatums are given is because the task or project was an extremely difficult
one perhaps even impossible even after you and your team go into hyper
productive mode and put forth maximal effort to get the job done sometimes it
just isn’t enough what should you do then
again the answer is to tell the truth only this time to your boss
first figure out if there are any other measures that might help you accomplish
what you’ve been tasked asked to do perhaps you need more people maybe need
more funding perhaps you need to let some other tasks slide while you focus
on getting the ultimatum fulfilled once you have all the information you need to
explain this situation to your boss explain that
despite the ultimatum you will not be able to accomplish what he or she has
asked you to do that’s if you if it literally can’t be done
describe what you would need to get the job done and what will happen if you do
not get what you need if you’ve done a good job communicating with your boss
and they have enough humility to listen after you detail the situation they
should recognize the truth and withdraw or at least modify their ultimatum but
that is no guarantee bosses who resort to delivering ultimatums might not be
rational enough to listen to reason and could hold the line on it if that
happens and your leader maintains the course then simply knuckle down do your
best protect your team to the best of your ability and stand by to suffer the
consequences with your head held high don’t be spiteful don’t have a bad
attitude don’t disparage the leader and don’t give up maintaining your dignity
and the morale of the troops is the victory in a case like this boom got a
section in here on reflect and diminish I talked about that on this podcast but
I laid out in some good detail here’s something that you talked about earlier
I’ll hit it again getting people to listen as you are rising through the
ranks you will need to have your say when you speak you will want people to
listen but sometimes there will be people who do not listen and they
interrupt or talk over you how should you handle that the answer is fairly
simple let them talk let that person jump in
and say what they want and let them finish their thoughts this works for a
multitude of reasons if someone wants to talk a lot then listen there’s no better
cure for a person that wants to talk then let him get their thoughts out of
their head let them say what they want to say when they have nothing left you
will be able to make your point this is also good because as they unload all
their ideas you now know not only everything you know you also know
everything they know armed with this knowledge you can assess their ideas you
can formulate counterpoint to recommend around their thoughts this works just as
well or even better in a group where you listen to multiple people break down
their own ideas argue with one another and ask questions of one another
about the details of their ideas once again this whole time you get to more
clearly understand the thoughts of others while quietly strengthening your
own foster ideas around the subject when you finally do find the opportunity to
speak you have the most comprehensive and developed thoughts chocolate just
revealed the secret behind the secret power right there that is that was one
of the major ones yeah remember I told you like I didn’t really realize how
deep that goes that concept right there and then when I sort of I still probably
don’t know how deep it goes but now like I see it a lot I’m like ooh and then
when you do it you’re like oh man I should have done this from the beginning
we had a muster and I the the numbers I gave it was hey as a leader you should
be listening ninety-eight percent of the time and talk to two percent of the time
but that’s the way it is yeah what’s the depth of that you’re talking about
what’s actually required though during that that time is that you’re actually
listening though oh you know I’m just like I’m gonna let it get out of their
system or you’re being dissed you actually need to listen with enough
humility to go there is a good chance somebody here is gonna say something
that I hadn’t thought about that I haven’t considered if you as a leader
like I’ve got it all dialed in but I’m gonna play this game to kind of let my
people talk and what you’re doing is just letting it get out of the system so
you can then come in with the point low that’s not what that 98 – is that 98 –
is man they got a lot of people a lot of things to say here I’m surrounded by
probably a few smart people somebody’s gonna say something I haven’t thought
about and you need to listen actively for what those things are and that gets
back to a comment from earlier in the book and a comment we’ve hit over and
over again is you have to care about your people you have to care about them
and which means you have to trust them and believe in them and vice versa and
somebody’s gonna say something that is right and it’s not a game to wait til
the end so you drop in your 2% and win it’s that you are armed with all what
you have and then what they have to and actually makes you a better leader
the caring about your people part is easy to say that’s really that’s hard mm
that is hard to do yeah even in a conflict situation what Looch yeah I
mean it’s actually that’s right that’s what it yeah it’s gonna show itself a
lot big time where competition when there’s more than one one person in the
conflict right like a debate or something like that it’s interesting
because you’re so compelled especially if you got a little knowledge yourself
right I’m gonna jump in and correct you right there and all you were wrong about
this this is actually really what happened you know kind of thing but yeah
if you just sit back let that fly listen let them fly you know let that fly maybe
they even met something else you know and just like are you saying like really
listen because you’ll find out really what they’re talking about because if
you interrupt too quick a lot of the time in my experience anyway you
interrupt too quick and then it’s like oh they were getting to that you know
like you shouldn’t interrupt it then you’re gonna known that without even
looking dumb or whatever yeah so yeah man so at the end then you have like all
the information just like how you’re like not only do you know what you knew
and maybe you changed you’re right maybe you did it but at least now you know you
improved your position oh yeah and in this is just one of the one more thing
that’s counterintuitive because someone might think hey I want the team to
listen to me yeah so what I’m gonna do is talk more and talk louder
and it is the absolute opposite is what happens you know the less you talk the
more people listen the less you talk the more people listen totally
counterintuitive and 100% undeniable now what’s interesting too is when you’re
coming to these conclusions in your head which as you’re watching or as you’re
listening to some people talk or discuss or debate or argue right that whole time
you’re thinking okay and at some point you can chime in right and what’s
interesting is you don’t even have to try MIT chimed in with an answer there’s
times where after 20 minutes of debate I chime in with one question and yet the
question is because that’s that all these other all these
other less important questions and answers have been brought up and
discussed in but there’s really one question that hasn’t even been brought
up and no one can see it cuz they’re in the battery so I can ask because because
again I’m not to your point Dave I’m not sitting there thinking I’m
waiting for everyone because I already know the answer yeah yeah I’m actually
listening and trying to assemble this entire picture so when as this picture
gets filled in by what everyone’s saying at the end now it’s revealed that
there’s something that’s still missing and now guess who gets to ask this
profound question that if we as a team can answer this question we will
actually have the solution clear yes to him it’s all clear to all so genius yeah
it’s the the I the ability to detach to step back to listen instead of talk is
really powerful for a leader got a little section about that about
apologizing I got a section about how you gotta be careful with your words as
a leader you must be careful not the gospel not to become too familiar casual
or unguarded with your troops gossip sarcasm and flippant remarks all carry
too much weight when thrown around by the leader ribbing comments that might
seem harmless among friends can have a real impact on a subordinate even
legitimate criticism needs to be delivered with caution preferably in
private so that dignity is maintained this is not to say that critical mistake
should not be reviewed so the whole team can learn but criticism must be
constructive and aimed at not an individual’s potential but at the
specific mistakes themselves this is I’ll do this all because you know I’ll
be sitting around joking around with everyone and we’ll be having a good time
and I’ll throw his anger at someone and I’ll be like yeah that was a nun Cole
you know and sometimes I’m wanting to I won’t even realize and I’ll I don’t have
to think about it and I’ll say oh yeah I what conversation did you and I have
about being an asshole I was like hey Dave you know like I’m an asshole and I
have to basically muzzle that we at several times we’ve had it several
times and and you have thrown some zingers out where I’ve given you the
look like well that was an asshole move right there yeah you’re like yes it was
perhaps worth it maybe not but yeah that’s one of those I I realize this you
know there’s two there’s two ends to this one end is when you’re in a
leadership position you don’t realize the weight of your compliments and you
don’t realize the weight of your criticisms so you might not think saying
hey echo that video looked great you know or whatever you might be might
think I’m not gonna tell that qu cuz I don’t care hey the videos video is good
to go but he knows that no it’s like yeah it actually carries weight and and
I won’t forget that all day long I’ll be and basically it’s a it’s a lack of
awareness of like hey I’m actually like in an elevated position in this team
whatever I’ll make that mistake you know I made it I would make this mistake at
trade you know when I was or ain’t asking a bruiser but I would make the
mistake but as I started to understand I realized hey you need to be careful with
your words you need to be careful you need to understand the weight of the
impact of the things that you’re saying both positive and negative because they
carry weight that you may or may not understand from that leadership position you know what let’s let’s get wrap this
in to the conclusion conclusion it’s all on you but not about you then I try and
sum this up but I’m gonna skip a little bit of it here leadership is all on you
but at the same time leadership is not about you not at all
leadership is about the team the team is more important than you are the moment
you put your own interests above the team and above the mission is the moment
you fail as a leader when you think you can get away with it when you think the
team won’t notice your self-serving maneuvers you are wrong your people will
see it and they will know it the leadership strategies and tactics in
this book are to be used not so you can be successful these strategies and
tactics are to be used so the team can be successful if you use them to further
your own career or your own agenda eventually these strategies and tactics
will backfire and bring you down you will fail as a leader and as a person
but if you use these strategies and tactics with the goal of helping others
and of helping the team accomplish its mission then the team will succeed and
if the team succeeds you win as a leader and as a person but infinitely more
important your people win and that is true leadership so probably a decent enough place where
we we tried to get through it what were you only have two hours that’s not too
bad that’s not too bad right there yeah so
obviously we skipped all kinds of stuff in this book I like Dave thanks for
pointing out the fact that the details in the book are important obviously the
sections we covered those sections that devote even just the sections that we
did cover but then I didn’t read everything there’s a lot in it yeah it’s
it’s pregnant with information and that’s a term that would get used to
describe Shakespeare when I was in college that these words now am i over
here trying to imply that Will Shakespeare just wrote leadership
strategy and tactics no Danger Close Danger Close but what I am saying is
what kind is the same there kind of no they’re not even close okay I’m not even
in the same ballpark but what Dave said is true lots the information in there is it’s there’s there’s a lot in the words
in the chapters in the details in the stories that will add to your
comprehension as a leader the what um okay so I have the original PDF of this
and by the way we’re gonna say why but I do uh what I like all read certain
chapters if I’m thinking of a very specific scenario going down for myself
you know like if you know what you know whatever the keeps me we do not my
scenario but let’s say you get into an argument with your coworker or something
like this or your boss or of life or whatever even like with your kids or
whatever and you say okay I have the scenario humming and I like navigate
through this scenario because you’re still you’re mad and you’re this and
you’re whatever and then you read that that’s when in my experience that’s when
that really really helps well working the book is short chapters it’s heavily
indexed so you can just look up hey what are you here what do i do there that
helps I’m sure people will put tabs all through it like they
do it I gotta me leadership like I do with extreme ownership that they’ll be
able to well here it is yep I’m making this mistake
oh here’s yeah here’s how I should handle this situation so yeah I’m sure
yeah I just I hope it I hope it’s able to give people information give them
strategy tactics they can actually implement that they can use and we
covered a bunch of it not all of it but I wish I had this book I just wish I had
this book told thirty years ago when I joined the Navy I wish I had this book
because it would have made everything so much easier it would have made me so
much better and so much more effective but oh well you know the best best time
to plant a tree was thirty years ago the second best time is right now so there
you go leadership strategy and tactics so probably a good place to wrap it up
echo yes Charles yes so any final thoughts on the leadership strategy and
tactics yeah so we the Field Manual the first Field Manual the discipline equals
freedom field man yes it’s um Field Manual for getting after it right yes
true this is a Field Manual for life so and I say I mean I both statement I get
it’s like here this is what is like let’s say hypothetically I mean real it
may who is this realistic maybe maybe not but let’s say you had in your pocket
the whole time everywhere you went Jack any situation where you get into like
some conflict with someone else the like you’ll literally find the answer in
there for your answer and this is why solely you know how like come and it
let’s be realistic like in US in a scenario with the co-worker love you
know when you’re anyone you’re not detached or emotional and you know you
say how to deal with that where you’re like you know take a deep breath and you
got to recognize the signs and like all this stuff right so you got to go kind
of through this little process some of us do go through this process to kind of
calm down or whatever right you just reading it not necessarily you but like
if you read it for yourself like you read the solutions that
of itself will detach you from it because it’s like the words are like oh
this is what you’re going through right now you’re like oh this is what I meant
to rate up this is what you do okay and then you just do it you see him saying
so we came in and it’s so like like what do you call when you chopped it up like
pretty you just said the word yeah hi indexed yeah yeah sure it’s not like
highly index I think there’s like a there’s 80 plus chapters in there yes
you know normal book has about 10-12 written like that chapters yeah so you
know I mean so it’s gonna be a little bit more difficult to apply that kind of
concept to like a let’s say a regular book and to be quite honest with you
yeah we tried to make I tried to make the book a little bit smaller so it is
more portable yeah so there you go and by the way one thing that you need to
get credit for is on the cover so we’ll say that we designed the cover you know
but the FM TAC 0-2 was 100% from echo Charles and when I saw that I was like
okay that is legit that is totally legit and people that are wondering about the
cover of the book it’s got some military symbols on it from operational terms and
graphics of 101 tact 5 TAC one and what they actually show is one of them is a
support by fire position one of them is a attack by fire position and what that
is is cover and move so you got one element that’s putting down support fire
the other one that’s attacking and then the symbol is a enemy headquarters and
the X through it means destroy so there is some you know what that is right
there’s layers yeah that’s a little something we call layers so hopefully
and we do know that you do have a finest a fondness for cargo pants so there’s a
possible cargo shorts sorry both pairs of shorts there’s a possibility that the
cargo shorts or pants could have a cargo pocket that is big enough possibly to
enable you to carry this with you and all thoughts
or get the Kindle version which i just–can it’s not that’s my good point
good point awesome all right Dave any yeah like
thoughts I agree with you echo I think the way you said that is
actually pretty good you know I got a chance to read this little advance copy
and then I also read the final version right before he printed it so I’ve seen
it a couple of times and we’ve talked about it when when you guys out there
whenever he’s out there reading this one of the things I did and I started to
think about this is all those little indexes there is a thread of every
single thing in this book every little index every little story whatever the
situation is that goes back to the ultimate strategy for being successful
as a leader which is the threat of extreme ownership and so for each one of
those things that you’re going through it when you’re thinking about we were
talking about ultimatums or yelling or all every one of those situations what
you can look at is think what is it that I’ve done to be either the recipient of
this situation or me acting out this way as a leader or my behavior in the
connection to the one thing that actually is the most critical strategy
in all of this which is extreme ownership is embedded in every one of
those things and I think that’s why I made such a big deal early on about
having to read every single little thing in this book all the different
components that we might have skipped over just for time they’re all in there
they all circle back to that theme which without it if that’s missing if you
can’t do if you can’t get over that hurdle all that kind of the answers and
the conclusions and solutions they won’t work you know they’re gonna slip they
won’t work and so for this field manual to work what is required is the ultimate
strategy which is you are responsible for everything and if you read it that
way you will see the connection in every one of those indexes back to that one
thing and those two things are indelibly connected as a leader and without that
none of the other stuff can happen so true because it’s easy to be like oh
yeah my BA he really needs to do that you know that whole classic thing
like man if my boss would just take some extreme orange that’s a good book that’s
a good book it explains my boss very well you see them saying yeah let’s know
man yourself and you know inherent in that and this is another piece of it
that people get wrong we all get wrong it’s it’s a mistake that we all make
because we think leading is about us you think leading is about us and it isn’t
it isn’t about us at all it is about it is about your people is about the people
and if you take care of your people yes then those people will take care of you
and that’s what this book is about is how do you actually take care of your
people how do you actually do that how do you communicate with those people and
if you can learn a huge part of that is yes you are gonna take the onus on
yourself of communicating correctly cuz when you’re talking you’re 50% of
the solution the other person actually has to hear you how do you get them to
hear you how do you become 100% of the solution how do you learn to communicate
in a way that people actually listen and hear you and understand you and then how
do you give them that underlying the underlying the underlying thread of what
you’re doing as a leader you need to know that they understand that you care
about them that that’s what you’re doing and when you care about them and when
you can communicate with them properly then you can meet them so leadership
strategy and tactics thanks for the feedback guys
and speaking of communicating with people hmm
I am gonna go communicate with people I’m going on tour yes hell yeah yes like
a rock band now there will be no music no and there will be no Jagermeister
okay all right and there will be no tour bus but I will be speaking about a
myriad of subjects I’ll be talking about leadership I’ll be talking about war
I’ll be talking about discipline I’ll be talking about fear I’ll be talking about
life I’ll be talking about death I’ll be answering questions I’ll be meeting with
you so if you want to experience that with me then come to the live gigs on
the road January 6th in DC January 11th in Austin
January 16th in New York January 20th LA January 27th Seattle January 28th San
Francisco some of the gigs are sold out go to Jocko to see if you can
get tickets for one of the gigs look forward to seeing you there so that we
can get after it and get after it is something that let’s face it in my
little scenario here get after it gets used quite a bit and I was searching for
the words to explain to people like what I’m going to do at the live shows what
I’m gonna do mmm and the I’m not kidding the only thing I could come up with is
I’m gonna get after it and if you know me you know what that means
and it means a lot of different things but I’m gonna get after it at those live
shows so hope to see you there and beyond that I know we talked about
leadership a lot today we talked about taking care of our people we talked
about taking ownership how do we take care of ourselves
echo Charles which in turn will help us to take care how do we take ownership of
our own lives and get ourselves on the right path anyway I bet there’s a lot of
people that are one what your answer is gonna be right now
well gonna be a little bit different as far as the approach because I read some
books watch some videos right so I’m just saying throughout my life and a
comment or a common tip bit of advice is exercise right exercise pretty much the
most beneficial step you can take to improve quit like right away University
across the board University lacrosse sport right so and I’m not a stranger to
exercise will say but you know how you get in a routine right how’s it is your
exercise routine pretty repetitive like it’s pretty the same like week to week
will say mm-hmm we’d have to have a whole like spin-off conversation about
that there’s a whole lot of things Raptor okay here’s a question then
specify do you switch up your workout so it’s more interesting because that’s the
thing not so it’s more interesting but so it’s more effective okay gotcha so a
big part of exercising right as it gets monotonous
for some so people be like I want something more fun yep you know what I
will say today I was doing a routine so that means there is some and I have a
bunch of you know routines that I do or whatever discipline occurs freedom field
manual they’re in there I was doing I’ve been and I’ll get focused on one for a
while and kind of like you know trying to prove that area and today I had to
pull up day right and so his weight vest pull-ups I was doing it l-sit pull-ups
tuck pull-ups dead hang pull ups chin-ups and then kipping pull-ups right
and I was doing a lot of them and I mean for pull-ups into this workout which is
gonna be hundreds of pull-ups I was just so bummed out I was like I was I was
scrambling through my brain looking for any reason you know that I should not do
this workout yeah but yeah I felt I felt this I mean when was this this was this
morning this one yeah man let’s say no that’s coincidentally I went through the
same think yesterday five times throughout
the workout I was doing that like no because I admit like I had a AC joint
the situation so when I’m like lifting heavy overhead it’s like it just didn’t
go and I was and I wasn’t fired up to do that exercise so I wasn’t trying to
class I was like no I’m gonna power through it was injured its injured so I
was like okay I can’t do that exercise it smells like man I might as well just
make it a rest day and I’ll pick him back up tomorrow or the next day or
whatever maybe next week whatever you know kind of thing right my excuse was
packaged up for you oh yeah it kind of was that’s kind of legit right because
it kind of will tell the whole excuses this monster well anyway so the thing
went on and that happened five times throughout the workout five powered
through all of them though got the workout on it and actually did a live
for extra reps at the end that discipline baguettes discipline it does
not fire it up you got a discipline and you impose more discipline yeah it’s
true I have no idea why we’re talking about this right oh well okay okay yeah
a little bit of deep deviation for sure but exercise good for you across the
board universally well the best steps you can take
short-term and long-term by the way for yourself do you prove yourself stay on
the path be on the path get on the path right but here’s the thing so exercise
does get my like my workout routine is the same week to week it’s this same
more or less and you know every time oh and here’s why I don’t switch it up this
is kind of a weird mindset I guess but it’s so you know okay sometimes I’ll
switch an exercise to B and then I’m thinking dang this is like more fun some
more interest because it’s interesting it’s new you know it’s a new exercise so
I don’t I don’t do that a lot in fact I don’t want to do that because what if I
really need to do it then because it’ll be boring after a while if I keep doing
that see I’m saying like if I do barbell
clean and press right and I’m like let me switch it up to kettlebells then I
started doing kettlebells and that gets boring now what do I have nothing okay I
can’t do it you know anyway it’s a weird thing but
here’s the thing though I’m sure there’s a point clear somewhere the point and
it’s your critical critical point too so that’s just the fitness part of it but
here’s what I realized this is why lifting the same routine and
conditioning one of the same routines no problem because I did you just there’s
no monotony there’s no repetitiveness in jujitsu well unless
you’re getting tapped out by chuckles guillotine then that gets kind of
repetitive and monotonous but aside from that always different that’s why it
never really gets boring mmm so you recommend you to – big time kind
of like surfing – by the way yeah so on it we haven’t many been have a staunch
to do jujitsu yes we start jujitsu we’re gonna need Aggie that’s true or
Jinky but I’m gonna get an order to see in case you were wondering unknown
origin key not just because they’re made in America not just because they grow
our economy not just because they make freedom stronger in the entire world
those are all good reasons on top of that you might as well get the best
possible key that was designed for jujitsu by jujitsu players you know in
the world – by the way very true also genes so genes yeah no you’re not
gonna work out in the genes again it but you can you definitely can I’m going to
I’m gonna do a squat workout in the jeans just for up just just be just
because yeah yeah market market research yeah something like this anyway jeans
same deal American denim made in America from the cotton all the way to the jeans
boom big deal same thing that shirts I did not say t-shirts but she’s
basically clothing clothing cover it and then what about supplementation
supplements the most important kind of supplements for your joints you can take
all the creatine in the world but if your joints not working you still got
problems you’re not moving forward not very fast anyway I don’t think so anyway
unless joint warfare krill oil super krill oil these are things where you
joints also discipline okay Dave Burke good deal date we started to have a
discussion about your discipline use do we are we preferring the canned what do
you call them ready RT RT d discipline go cans or the powder
RTD is ready to deploy is that ready to drink it ready there’s actually
the street term got it uh so it was a military play on turn right ready to
deploy better it so I have I was one kid I had I had shifted my bias to the RTD
cans cuz out a bunch of them they are literally on my way between the house
and the car if I’m going somewhere I can grab it and literally I’m on the gun
ready it’s ready a toy at any moment a little curve ball in the can scenario
which was the Jocko Palmer powder so the powder showed up and I tried it and I
realized what it was and then how good the JA Kalpana was I have now reduced my
reliance on the cans and I’m back on the powder a little bit the powder not only
is the Jocko Palmer look at taste good look it delivers it delivers what it
says it’s gonna deliver but do we not all have just steeped in our brain
memories of Arnold Palmer iced teas just in restaurants in real nice restaurants
I was down in South Carolina and I went to this restaurant they had that on a
pond or so good you know what I mean does everyone not just have that
remember remember this – you go to different restaurants and they they’re
not all the same Arnold Palmer said well some of them are
really good some of them and some of them you want it you want it you want to
uproot the entire restaurant and move it next to your house so you can get that
Arnold Palmer whenever that whenever you want it mm-hmm that’s what that’s what
this is that’s either jam that good yeah yeah the answer is no I don’t think all
of us have those thoughts but yeah man sounds good
and it does yeah yeah all good also speaking of tasting good mope okay now
Mulk the dessert in the form of a protein
yeah one protein the protein for a dessert a vice or what’s good for the
goose is good for the game you understand what I’m saying anyway the
mint we have not spoken about mint chocolate in I would say one month and a
half that’s definitely a problem I go to that is still my go-to when I need a
dessert the top of the pack for me is still mint
you know mint chocolate chip I get it Dave that has abandoned mint days of
Hezekiah he’s abandonment he’s abandoned peanut butter and he’s gone full
strawberry yes strawberry moment that’s good but it’s at the point that so we
did a muster where we laid out a single serve pack of all the milks across all
the tables and I actually considered taking all the strawberry singles about
this is not happening I’m taking all of these I didn’t do that but I actually
had that thought you thought I didn’t have to know and I will say that when
you put them on the desert meter zero is not desert ten is desert yeah the
strawberry is the is desert I mean it is desert you have to really think through
it to think that you’re not leaving desert mean is also great fully minton
is awesome but mint is like having chocolate milk like like old school you
mix up a Nestle’s Quik and you’re like all this tastes good right now I like it
a lot but it’s that’s not desert level it’s really good it’s a 9 mm hmm but the
strawberry is dessert straight up yeah oh great that that is true for sure I
mean and I drink the nine all day long because even I mean I’ll drink the nut
and the peanut butter is the same thing yeah and I had that chocolate the other
day cuz be little I said be little how tell me about the chocolate again and he
goes he says dude you need he goes how many times have you had it I said twice
and he goes have it again right now so I went home and I mixed up a chocolate and
I had to say this is good oh yeah the darkness yeah I am sticking
with the mint chocolate but I put peanut butter in it which is just weird
no you have peanut butter because then you don’t have the mint and it’s like
men why you can see why even carry on you know
nonetheless hey this is all good stuff also Jacque a white sheep by the way
certified organic very light very refreshing
very delicious these are softer words compared to the hardcore persona / image
that we may have of Jocko but hey these are the facts and that’s how it’s going
down I thought that you’re gonna say that we may have meaning you of you okay
yeah it’s true good maneuver I think you painted yourself in a corner you found a
way out excuse me anyway we get all this stuff
at or Jemaine dot-com there’s some good stuff on there also chocolate store it’s
called Jocko store Jocko is our website this is where you can get
t-shirts jackets hoodies hats rash guards representative of the path
discipline equals freedom good deaf core to the core all that stuff mm-hmm
don’t forget about this podcast and the fact that you should subscribe to it if
you haven’t already which is entirely up to you but lelia we recommend that you
do subscribe to this podcast and also don’t forget that we have the grounded
podcast which is about life yes and a lot of jiu-jitsu
yes which is the same thing in many ways yeah correct
and then warrior kid podcast have you listened the new ones yet Dave no with
the children no I think you’re gonna like them that will happen soon I think
you’re gonna like them I think the kids are gonna like them there are some
lessons I get done recording those and I don’t know I don’t know what else in my
life gives me the feeling of getting done recording a warrior kid podcast
where I felt like I’ve done something really good but just something I’m like
I’m like yeah I mean I get it out and I go yep I passed a good I did it I could
did a good deed you know yeah and then this is kind of revealing cuz it shows
you that I don’t do a lot of good stuff most of the stuff I do is bad so when I get done recording I’m like
man I that was if that was a good thing a kid’s gonna hear that and it’s gonna
help them that makes me feel good and then speaking of kids
speaking of warrior kids check out Irish Oaks ranch calm we’re young Aiden is
making soap from goat milk on his farm so that you can stay clean yes sir and
we are looking forward to the new that new one yes right that’s still making a
new soap and the soap has anti bacterial bacterial antimicrobial properties to it
antifungal properties again and the soap is going to be called killer soap very
much in line yeah very good also YouTube we have a YouTube channel
if you were interested in watching the video version of this podcast also
excerpts on their enhanced excerpts from time to time on there if you enjoy
explosions let’s blow it music to dramatic cello music he’ll deliver the
message of the path visually and audibly we’re four years deep right now yes sir
we were talking about videos the other day and you were talking about some of
the victory MMA videos early and you were saying hey these are cut you know
now at the time they were kind of Awesome
yeah and they were Thanks now we look back and it’s like well you know they’re
kind of commonplace knots awesome are you feeling how are you feeling about
the early jockle podcast videos have we have they become dated yet are they
timeless they’re timeless okay obviously by Charles either making timeless videos
well you’re like me being Shakespeare well yeah the let’s fit I mean they’re a
lot more simple than that you know I mean what you figure the first enhanced
excerpt was more of an inch dental situation the one good good
I think that will be timeless not as far as the video production goes but like
it’s more the message is the front-runner of that whole situation
let’s face it cool I thought it was just you’re in here anyway in my opinion that
message is timeless yes so yes they do still hold up and I think they will hold
up for a very long time well I’m glad you feel so good about
that anyway YouTube channel choco podcasts we do have a YouTube channel
boom there it is we also have psychological warfare up me talking to
you directly into your ears when you are about to make a mistake and you know
what that mistake is it looks like a donut I’m not gonna let you do it it
looks like skipping work out not gonna let you do it looks like sleeping in the
morning not gonna do it so check out psychological warfare on itunes google
play whatever mp3 platforms and if you need a visual if you need the visual
reminder of the path and you need it big on canvas school go to flipside canvas
comm which is my brother dakota meyer Darko podcast 115 by the way who makes
graphic representations of the path so you can hang them on your wall and
you’ll wake up to every day and then we got some books obviously we spent the
last two podcast reviewing leadership strategy and tactics i think we’ve got
that one out there probably enough time for you to pre-order right now and get a
first a dish or you can also not do that and live the rest of your life in shame
with a second a dish choice is yours I will still sign a second dish so I’ll
still beg a med cool I’ll barely even let you know to be subtle be a subtle
are you gonna go like you’re gonna look at him and go dude no no I only want to
be that because it’s not an issue no not a big issue
I appreciate that support yeah yeah so you can give that a try or way the
workhead books 1 2 & 3 get them for the kids that you know miking the Dragons
game for the little kids that you know gets to learn how to overcome fear just
when it goes freedom field manual field manual zero one now I guess it’s
pre-designated so that is the as echo just said the field may known how to get
after it you know very important as echo Charles says yes lots of echo Charles
quotes over here coming for me the audio version of that is on iTunes Amazon
music google play and also extreme ownership and the nakata me a leadership
the two books that I wrote with my brother Leif babban about leadership and
how to use the leadership principles we used on the battlefield in your business
and in your life and echelon front which is our leadership consultancy and what
we do is solve problems through leadership what ever problems you are
having in your organization they are leadership problems they are absolutely
leadership problems 100% and I know that might sound crazy for you to hear right
now for me to say that 100% of the problems that you are having in your
organization are leadership problems it is accurate that’s what the problems are
that’s where they come from and we will get them fixed go to echelon front comm
for details on that EF online Dave what you got if you are on the leadership
path and you’re training with us EF online is an awesome resource to get
additional reps and it is a great tool that we use in between working with
clients however this is completely dual use that if you are not even remotely
engaged with echelon front and doing leadership training this is still a
skill that you can develop and even though the EF online and go directly to
that as a resource and exposed to all the things that we’re teaching all the
things we’re teaching clients and customers and all the people working
with is actually available for anybody and it is a easy and guaranteed way to
apply the principles that we teach everywhere directly at anytime you want
it’s an awesome awesome resource we also have a live event that is the entire
echelon front team it’s called the muster we are doing three gigs in 2020
we’re doing one in Florida or and oh we’re doing one in Dallas Texas
and we are doing one in Phoenix Arizona go to extreme ownership calm for details
all of our musters have sold out in the past these will sell out to don’t
hesitate and then we have EF overwatch and EF Legion this is our talent
acquisition firm where we are taking leaders from the military from both
Special Operations combat aviation and all forces and we are placing them into
civilian businesses so if your business you can go in there and look for people
to hire if you’re a vet I’m telling you go to EF Legion comm and enter yourself
enter your information so that you can see what jobs are out there you can get
information on how to get hired we can you can look at jobs that are posted and
you can start your next mission of getting after it
that’s EF overwatch and EF Legion comm and if you haven’t heard enough from us
yet which would be surprising well we are available on the interwebs on
Twitter on Instagram and on on that Facebook Dave is at David R Burke BER ke
echo is adequate Charles and I am at Jocko Willie Kent to all the military
folks out there thanks to you all for protecting our way of life we we cherish
the gift that you give to us and we thank you for and to our police and law
enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and
correctional officers and Border Patrol and Secret Service and all first
responders you also protect our way of life here at home so thanks to you all
as well and to everyone else out there just remember that leadership is all on
you but it isn’t about you
about your team it’s about your people it’s about taking care of your people so
they will take care of you so be that leader be that leader be the leader that
elevates your people and elevates your team by utilizing the right leadership
strategies and by utilizing the right tactics and by going out there every day
and getting after it and until next time this is Dave Burke and echo and Jocko


  • Mathew Drake Hite says:


  • Love Is The Answer says:

    Notification squad?

  • Veronica Funky says:

    Don't piss me off #211

  • apnaem says:

    Prinskipper Skippel! Prinipple Skimster! I found something.

  • The Kids Nice says:

    What a pleasant little surprise this is, just wrapped up a workout and podcast #79 and here we are.

  • AccountabiliTeam says:

    This podcast will by my workout partner today

  • 3L33T says:

    I want to hear more stories about Good Deal Dave during his Infantry Rifleman days.

  • Coach Kota says:

    No ads?

  • f0rumrr says:

    I used to be a landscape foreman with anywhere from 2-6 people I had to tell what to do. I found its best to be nice and try and teach. Win them over with knowledge and they will respect you. Prove your the one that needs to be leading. But thats just landscaping in downtown seattle. The essence of leadership is to know your responsible for the people under your command. Command equals responsibility.

  • Keve Zoltani says:

    Jocko we are grateful for your podcasts, I find myself saying "good" a lot now!

  • f0rumrr says:

    ability to detach, interesting concept

  • DEEP MMA & BOXING says:

    if you need more jocko content i put up his instagram live Q&A and him and echo working on leg locks the other day.

  • Anthony Ventura says:

    I would like to hear jocko say “I am inevitable” straight into the mic. He is the real life thanos. I mean that with tremendous respect.

  • iSlayEskimos says:

    Not trying to promote any illicit drugs here guys, but if you struggle with detaching from your ego, a heroic mushroom dose in a controlled setting or a nice little DMT session brings everything into perspective. Some of the natural psychedelic drugs are very beneficial when it comes to ego detachments and coming to terms with your own shortcomings. Love the podcast Jocko, listening to you and echo really puts me at ease but keeps me conscious of what I can improve in my own life. Hope everyone has a great day.

  • jojo cubilete says:

    Opinion on the Iran situation?

  • nodrules2 says:

    Can y'all give me some advice? I've just started working out at 25 and was doing well. However I'm recovering from a concussion, a broken finger and fucked up wrist. Could use some advice for working out while fuked up.

  • davidwilson626 says:

    Jocko I would love to hear maybe a short 20 or 30 minute video about your thoughts on what's going on in Iran.

  • murilo ninj says:

    I'm not sure if he would do it but try to get Command Master Chief Hershel Davis on the podcast!

  • Brian McLean says:

    0:00:00 – Opening

    0:00:20 – Leadership Strategy and Tactics Review. Part 2, Tactics.

    0:01:00 – Tactics. Starting as a leader. When not chosen.

    0:05:20 – Didn’t get the promotion. Work or BJJ.

    0:09:20 – Detach and Ego interfere with “seeing”

    0:12:38 – Overcoming a grudge.

    0:15:30 – Rambo Talk. Slow to step up and lead.

    0:23:50 – Subtle leadership. If you are doing it right, they don’t even know you won.

    0:28:00 – Let the other lead. Echo grocery store example. Too many leaders

    0:30:30 – Don’t take it personally. Listen to everyone.

    0:34:47 – Don’t dig in. Don’t over commit. Need to maneuver, have options.

    0:41:00 – Iterative decision making.

    0:45:00 – Doing everything a little harder. Team unity first.

    0:51:29 – Dave Berke, Coffee Mess Officer. Conform to influence.

    1:02:00 – Jocko gets a construction job, with Louis.

    1:05:30 – Negative problem. Humility.

    1:14:00 – Leading peers. Influence is the preferred method. People are crazy.

    1:30:35 – Punishment.

    1:33:02 – When to quit. Don’t anchor. Aircraft strategy.

    1:42:05 – Rumor control. Communication. Explain why.

    1:45:20 – Sam Harris, you’re wrong. Tell the truth.

    1:48:30 – Tactfully delivering the truth. The Jocko Savage Debrief.

    1:55:30 – Indirect approach. Escalation of counseling. Most subtle correction possible. “Bro”.

    2:00:12 – Ultimatums. How has my leadership failed.

    2:05:23 – Listen.

    2:11:50 – Be careful with your words. Give praise. Carefully criticize.

    2:14:30 – The conclusion.

    2:18:36 – Final Thoughts and Take-aways.

    2:21:50 – Cover Explanation. Echo Charles. Symbols.

    2:23:11 – Extreme Ownership is the foundation.

    2:25:30 – Leading is not about us. Take care of your people.

    2:29:23 – How to stay on THE PATH.

    2:37:53 – Lots of Mölk Talk.

    2:41:40 – Warrior Kid podcasts are Jocko doing good.

    2:50:41 – Closing Gratitude.

  • DimensionZombie says:


  • DimensionZombie says:

    Can u guys let me know when good deal Dave sells his used car

    Trying to get a good DEAL

  • jeremy brimmer says:

    Semper Fidelis

  • Richard Price says:

    Still recovering from my accident the curse of the broken olecranon, oh and I never thought I'd say it but Donald has redeemed himself in my eyes that is more F…like it sir!

    Listening to the guardian you tube exert about time too . God Bless him , how can people be so ignorant and yet there are ways to fight evil that take it to that other dimension from where it all issues forth , the "man" remains, in my opinion, the next stage in human evolution, oh yes excuse me probably nothing to do with your podcast God Bless again happy New Year Jocko

  • Cameron Christon says:

    Dave's Facebook handle is shown as @DaveRBerke on the screen, just a heads up. Great episode, though I wish I could have read the book before it came out. Got that FIRST EDISH on the way though.

  • Will Martinez says:

    So grateful for this podcast. It really help me realize that I was a poor leader in my kitchen. It helped me communicate with my pets and ppl I lead. Thank you for your service and your mission after service. Top notch podcast right here.

  • Iris Gonzalez-Caulder says:


    starting off is Simple
    but knot easy

    37:04 – 15

    good guy ? hospital band
    shorts with anchors
    bad guy anchoring

    I'm not sure which
    of the two jokers
    was and/or is the sickest
    for money and/or power
    or both money and power.

    30:27 – 31:50
    Good heart is good leadership

    I didn't post what I wrote
    early today to 3L33T
    on " freaked out "

    Christ the Spirit
    help and protect my mom.

  • Ben Pierce says:

    One of the best guests.

  • Twitch Grip says:

    Digging in to your own idea and fruitless argument that doesn't accomplish the goal really reminds me of United States congress and how much I hate them.

  • Aaron Pedraza says:

    gonna binge watch all of his vids and see where I get afterwards. Imma let y'all know the outcomes..aha

  • Kira Aust says:

    Can you pls do a podcast with the rock!!!!!

  • Mister says:

    I pre-ordered your book. Keep em coming. A wise man can speak 100 words whilst a fool can speak 1,000 and the wise man’s words will always hold more weight.

  • Randy_Francis says:

    I thought Jocko was about to announce a presidential campaign when he was leading up to announce he's was going on tour lol #jocko2020

  • Iris Gonzalez-Caulder says:

    Jocko Willink I respect you
    yet 54:31 – 37 isn't humility
    the correct word isn't
    the correct word is

    👍 54:39 – 43 be 100% yourself

    👍 58:12 – 59:31

    👍 young blood
    high voltage LOL

  • PurdyRich says:

    Early friend stages, still trying to be polite

    Echo: So I push em

  • kwazhims3lf says:

    holy fuck… 2 minutes in
    some1 teach this to foreman and GF's in the trades
    had too many i'd wouldnt even spit on if they were on fire. spineless backstabbing cunts

  • Anthony Skidmark says:

    Its more about aliens than being a man.

  • The Kids Nice says:

    If you ever have to tell someone you work with that you’re the “leader” then you should straight up just quit right then and there. My god is that the most cringey and embarrassing thing I’ve ever heard.

  • The Kids Nice says:

    “The most important thing in the team, is not me, it’s the team. If you are putting yourself before the team, you’re comprising your teams capability. Subordinate your ego”

    Echo you need to make that part where he’s talking about being a new guy in his platoon and outdoing everyone, which the other guys didn’t like. So he conformed to the team… then send it to Dave Goggins and that right there is why you’ll never see that self absorbed, egotistical dude on this podcast. He wears his ego on his shirt like a badge of honor. Jocko has his folded up in his wallet in his back pocket… he tells stories of himself out performing guys in his platoon as if he really was better, and perhaps he was more skilled at certain aspects of training but, that’s not why you join the military. It’s not about you. It’s about the team. It’s about the country. Everything that comes out of Goggins mouth is about exalting himself. He’s too blinded by his own huge ego to realize this. People love him when he’s rattling off instagram videos while he’s running down the street by himself, but put yourself in a team with that guy and i guarantee you’ll never wanna work with him again.

  • The Kids Nice says:

    So many great gems in this podcast and in this book.

  • Ian Alderson says:

    Day 25 of asking for Mike Maroney

  • Ian Wrigley says:

    Good deal Dave!

  • Jae says:

    Just wanted to say that I appreciate these video's and podcasts.

    They've helped me greatly, going from a teenager to a leader, as I am now 19 and in my final year of studying for the position as an officer in the Royal Netherlands Airforce.

    I've never seen myself becoming a leader before, but now I'm this far, I wouldn't trade it for anything else.

    Thank you.

  • Mario Romo says:

    Love this one thank you guys

  • Danne Soderh says:

    I always crack up so much when he says ''and on that FACEBOKIII''
    I always find myself laughing out loud at work when I hear that.

    Big fan, love these podcasts!

  • Life A Beach says:

    This is a great list ty

  • Life A Beach says:

    The more I listen to Jocko the more amazed I am at his skill sets. Phenomenal!

  • mhill88ify says:

    So much wisdom dispensed here, will def. give this a read, I hope millions of others do as well.

  • Dijana M says:

    There is also the thing of confirmation bias colouring everything a person perceives so for example, due to some interpersonal issues, I'm now seeing everything said here as having a secondary subtext to it. Which hopefully isn't true at all.

  • KingCee187 says:

    ran across this by mistake,started listening,and boom!!! makes so much sense!!!! Godbless



  • cthornton523 says:

    This subtle leadership when one is in a group of leaders…pure gold, I tell you. (The daily life application in the supermarket was cute)
    I'm a Corpsman' daughter, a WWII bomber pilot's granddaughter who married a widower USMC with two sons. I need all this, with the subtle leadership.
    The children's books & field manuals get so supported with these applications from the long-form podcasts. The progress we have made as a cohesive unit in the past month since you blipped on my radar brings a tear to my mother's eye.
    Thank you.

  • Adam Reynolds says:

    Jocko ,echo ,get Roberts on Rogan bearing gifts from origin

  • Cameron Kinder says:

    Supermarket entries….. I LOL’d.

  • Ed Meds says: you all have to see this doc… These boys need to be known! Its amazing!

  • DesertPunk says:

    As Sun Tzu said… the battle is won before it is fought… so there fore the fighters whom believe in your plan and win are the true Heros. It is they and themselves that brought victory and took you along. Be humble… and always have your peoples backs.

  • Any Auto says:

    Just pre ordered the book. Good shit brother

  • James Hogan says:

    I had to check myself when you quickly responded to the question of getting along. I am 66 years old, served in the military 4 years. 40 years of working as a field hand at 11, working on truck docks, to construction. I had the approach of being an affable stone. A professional, often people in positions of influence test you with wild balls from left field. Nothing you feel, is important, suck it up. The exception is when the leader is inexperienced, weak. Then I adapted to managing up. So I appreciate your content.

  • adam wiedner says:

    I'm just here for the Supermarket stories from Echo

  • Absy A says:

    Good podcast

    Messi makes some good points x

  • wheredidileavemycell says:

    How to Ask for a Promotion:

    "Hey Boss, How can I maximize my value to this company. I LOVE what I do & I am grateful for the previous opportunities. My goal is to bring more to the table, work harder, & make more"

    make the value-to-investment ratio appealing to the boss. Become a lynch pin.

  • Von Quin says:

    Are you taking drugs to get your body like that,or is it natural,if it's natural your body looks so strong and healthy.And you give good information, I get a lot out of it.

  • SEEN says:

    echo just echos jacko

  • David Bliss says:

    in my case I once asked for a promotion I was told there were too many pepole in the job I wanted a 3 weeks later 3 staff quit and he hired 3 new staff to replace them.

    can I see that as anything other then he lied to me?

  • Barlyn Uribe says:

    Also, when briefing before the mission and debriefing after the mission, is where the leader is highlighted.

  • Tony Suarez says:

    What do you do with a bunch of snowflakes, if they perceive you as a Trump type and try and attack you, because they are offended?

  • Max Simpson says:

    More Joel struthers

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